Change of product direction, good and bad news!

[The 8-Bit Guy]

So, I just wanted to address some of the questions/concerns about the X8.

Just to reiterate, BASIC code should be compatible unless it uses a bunch of pokes and peeks.  You could literally take the SD card out of the X8, stick in in the X16 and the code should run.

For machine language programs, as for the differences in how the Vera is accessed, it's not nearly as many here are thinking.  I saw one person who seemed irate over the idea that we'd be throwing away all of the coding work people have done.  It's still the same features, the same registers, and same behaviors. The sprites, the layers, the PSG, it's all the same.  The primary difference is how you copy data to VRAM.  I suppose with some software this could be a major problem.  But in most cases, I suspect it would be less than an hour worth of work to convert a game from X16 to X8 or vice-versa.  I haven't actually ported Petscii Robots yet (since I don't know if this product will see the light of day) but I suspect I could have it running on the X8 in maybe an hour or two.  It's nowhere nearly as difficult as porting between something like the VIC-20 and C64 which have very different video/audio systems.

The reason it has USB, or more specifically, the reason it CAN have USB is because this is all handled by the FPGA.  There was no way we could handle USB on a 6502 system due to the enormous complexity of USB.  However, the USB support would be limited to keyboards and controllers.  



For the person that asked why on earth you would want this and compared it to a C64 and then saying a C32 instead.  Well, the main benefits are: half the price and immediate availability.  As i've mentioned before, the X16e might never see the light of day because it is going to be dependent on the X16p being a success before that gets developed.  But we could have this available now.  And it will be so darned cheap, there's no reason you couldn't have this along side the X16p, or use this to develop on and wait for the X16e or whatever.



For those asking where to donate.   I haven't set anything up yet.  I've already seen a few paypal donations come in. But I'd rather people wait until we have some official account for the X16 development.  

[twopoint71]

9 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

If everyone just donated $5 that would probably be an incredible help.

@The 8-Bit Guy Donation link please. I'm happy to throw money at the project just to see the dream come true.

[Roughnight]

So, I just wanted to address some of the questions/concerns about the X8.
Just to reiterate, BASIC code should be compatible unless it uses a bunch of pokes and peeks.  You could literally take the SD card out of the X8, stick in in the X16 and the code should run.
For machine language programs, as for the differences in how the Vera is accessed, it's not nearly as many here are thinking.  I saw one person who seemed irate over the idea that we'd be throwing away all of the coding work people have done.  It's still the same features, the same registers, and same behaviors. The sprites, the layers, the PSG, it's all the same.  The primary difference is how you copy data to VRAM.  I suppose with some software this could be a major problem.  But in most cases, I suspect it would be less than an hour worth of work to convert a game from X16 to X8 or vice-versa.  I haven't actually ported Petscii Robots yet (since I don't know if this product will see the light of day) but I suspect I could have it running on the X8 in maybe an hour or two.  It's nowhere nearly as difficult as porting between something like the VIC-20 and C64 which have very different video/audio systems.
The reason it has USB, or more specifically, the reason it CAN have USB is because this is all handled by the FPGA.  There was no way we could handle USB on a 6502 system due to the enormous complexity of USB.  However, the USB support would be limited to keyboards and controllers.  

For the person that asked why on earth you would want this and compared it to a C64 and then saying a C32 instead.  Well, the main benefits are: half the price and immediate availability.  As i've mentioned before, the X16e might never see the light of day because it is going to be dependent on the X16p being a success before that gets developed.  But we could have this available now.  And it will be so darned cheap, there's no reason you couldn't have this along side the X16p, or use this to develop on and wait for the X16e or whatever.

For those asking where to donate.   I haven't set anything up yet.  I've already seen a few paypal donations come in. But I'd rather people wait until we have some official account for the X16 development.  

OK, now I want a x8 and then later the x16...

[dbozan99]

I hope you don't take the results of this poll too seriously, as there are missing options and many missing voters.

What I mean, for example, is that the best answer IMO to the second question "Should we still make a Phase-2 product?" was "No, skip and go straight to Phase-3" but that's not how I really feel. I would have voted for something like "No, and skip the phase-3 as well."

The results of the third question "For the X16 Phase-1, do you prefer a kit or a somewhat more expensive pre-assembled board?" are currently heavily favoring the DIY kit since the tech nerds are here voting. I don't think that the majority of the "thousands" of potentially interested buyers will want a kit.

Consider the general public's view of this/these product(s). What are the questions someone without much tech experience might ask when deciding if they want to buy one. Questions like:

• 
  "Why does the X8 have a faster CPU than the X16? That must mean it's better, right?"
  


• 
  "What's the difference between the big one and the small one? Do I need those extra features the big one provides?"
  


• 
  "If I buy an X8 now and like it, will all of my software work on an X16 if I decide to upgrade?"
  


• 
  "It's so small! Is this just an emulator, like the NES/SNES Classic?"
  
   
  

Of course, these are just some of the questions someone might ask, but you really need to be looking at this from their perspective. The more questions that a prospective buyer has, the more likely they are to be confused about which one to buy. The more confused they are, the more likely they are to just say "forget it" and not buy one at all.

[Cyber]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:32 AM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

VRAM access is fundamentally different.  There is a 256 byte window into the VRAM which is mapped to a section of base RAM.  You can move the window around. This is actually more efficient than what we do with the X16 and is only possible because it is all inside an FPGA.

Since it is all inside FPGA, is it possible to implement in X8 one more way to accces VRAM - the way it is in X16. Developer would be free to choose either use 256 byte window or 4 registers. I mean, if you already implemented 256 byte window, implementing 4 byte window along side should not be a problem. Thus way X16 programs would run on X8 without modifications.

[twopoint71]

@The 8-Bit Guy There are a few fundraising channels which could fuel the X16 project well past a fundraiser

• 
  The Commander X16 store is not functional.  This seems like low hanging fruit for someone who knows how to put these kind of deals together with t-shirt and knick-knack companies that will slap logos and familiar catch phrases on products of hopefully good quality.
  


• 
  Raffles are a great fundraiser, and the better the prize the more money can be raised from increased interest.  For example, some of the early X16 hardware or other related vintage hardware as raffle prizes.
  


• 
  Live streaming something involving the X16 project from someone deeply involved.  For example, live coding a game such as PETscii Robots and offering programming Q&A to viewers.
  

This is what comes to mind to help with funding.  There's probably some better ideas, but this is what is popping into my head right now.

[dbozan99]

33 minutes ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

For the person that asked why on earth you would want this and compared it to a C64 and then saying a C32 instead.  Well, the main benefits are: half the price and immediate availability.  As i've mentioned before, the X16e might never see the light of day because it is going to be dependent on the X16p being a success before that gets developed.  But we could have this available now.  And it will be so darned cheap, there's no reason you couldn't have this along side the X16p, or use this to develop on and wait for the X16e or whatever.

If you do this, I think you might have the opposite of the Osbourne Effect happen. Most people who have shown interest in the X16 will see that you've released a computer and buy this one instead of waiting for the X16. Then, when the X16 does arrive, many will likely have a hard time justifying the cost of a (probably significantly) more expensive computer that has a few more features than what they already own.



You seem to see the X8 as a way to give people an introduction into the "World of X16" but I see this as a way to financially shoot yourself in the foot.

You need to stop thinking about this as a computer, and start thinking about this as an Educational Toy.

[Cyber]

6 minutes ago, Cyber said:

Since it is all inside FPGA, is it possible to implement in X8 one more way to accces VRAM - the way it is in X16. Developer would be free to choose either use 256 byte window or 4 registers. I mean, if you already implemented 256 byte window, implementing 4 byte window along side should not be a problem. Thus way X16 programs would run on X8 without modifications.

@Frank van den Hoef, I forgot to tag you in this post, since it's a technical question to you as designer.

[BruceMcF]

13 minutes ago, dbozan99 said:

If you do this, I think you might have the opposite of the Osbourne Effect happen. Most people who have shown interest in the X16 will see that you've released a computer and buy this one instead of waiting for the X16. Then, when the X16 does arrive, many will likely have a hard time justifying the cost of a (probably significantly) more expensive computer that has a few more features than what they already own.



You seem to see the X8 as a way to give people an introduction into the "World of X16" but I see this as a way to financially shoot yourself in the foot.

Yes, @The 8-Bit Guy this was the most important missing option in Question 1:

1. Option 4: Yes, release the X16 kit in beta to a limited number of selected developers willing to build or pay for a built board, then once the the X16 is ready for full release, release the X16p, X16c and X8 at the same time. No wait for the X16e, so no Osborne effects either way.

If that option had been available, that would have been my vote: use the X8 to avoid the x16e development phase altogether.

As a side benefit, this would also give time to contact Stefanie to see if she can help @Frank van den Hoef integrate a soft YM2151 core into the X8 design on an FPGA that can handle both. Then you have the same audio feature set, the X8 is a subset of the same video feature set, and you have much less "feature fracturing" between X16 and X8. Given the raft of FM chips and FPGA soft cores of FM chips on the Feonix256, having the YM2151 in the X8 would also narrow the porting gap between X16 software and the Feonix256.

[x16tial]

43 minutes ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I haven't actually ported Petscii Robots yet (since I don't know if this product will see the light of day) but I suspect I could have it running on the X8 in maybe an hour or two.

Did you not use any of the X16's banked RAM, for resources that you now have to manage differently on the X8?

You're asking us to choose or not choose a product we know very little about.  We've had years now to familiarize with the X16, and what, a little over 24 hours, and 2 or 3 posts to find out about the X8, pretty lopsided...

Reading between the lines, you seem anxious to get the X8 out, what's the hurry?   Could we not have more time, more info, and access to the emulator?  And then get feedback?