(new title): Hard decision, but the answer is pretty clear.

[x16tial]

• 
  X16 runs at 8Mhz -- 12 Mhz is better
  


• 
  X16 has a TON more RAM -- this doesn't matter with fast SD speeds, that same 8k can be swapped from SDCard rather than switching banks
  


• 
  X16 has twice the video RAM -- this might be the worst part, it means only 1bpp for 640x480, but tricks with sprites, charsets, etc would probably compensate
  


• 
  X16 has 4 expansion slots - provide an i/o bus on the X8?
  


• 
  X16 has a Yamaha sound chip - add on expansion with said i/o bus?
  


• 
  X16 has an IEC disk drive port - this is really kinda silly.  nice nostalgia, but let's be real, who is going to use this?
  


• 
  X16 is infinitely more "hackable" - make the X8 more hackable, provide that i/o bus.  and how about tools to make reprogramming the fpga easy?
  


• 
  X16 has SNES ports - not needed with the usb port
  


• 
  X16 has PS/2 - usb is better
  

As attached as we all are to the X16, the X8 is just the better idea.  Even the name X16 is a holdover from when the 65C816 was going to be its processor, I believe.

In my opinion we should all bite the bullet, and go with the X8 as the platform.

Releasing both I think is a mistake.  @The 8-Bit Guy, you do this full time, so developing for multiple platforms seems like no big deal.  Most of the rest of us don't have that luxury.

 

[Fenner Machine]

I think what you say sounds logical, but the X16 is the better system. Maybe. Not sure.

If an expansion port was added to the X8, would it be possible to connect it to one of the expansion slots on the X16?

It might then be possible to use both together. I don’t know how or what could be done with that.

[VincentF]

What about the discrete chips ?

Do the X8 have the ability to be built this way ?

Is the bank swapping through SD card that easy ? What is the impact on performances ?

Have you seen the poll on the thread called "Clarity of purpose: why do YOU want the X16?"

I'm not into buying a credit-card-sized board with all the system on a single chip, I have RPi at home and that's enough.

[Snickers11001001]

I think you guys are building up a nice mythos about the X8. 

For myself, I have YET to see detailed specifications.    Oughtn't we wait a bit for the details?

[Fenner Machine]

My preference is X16 Phase 1.

I don’t mind FPGA’s.

The X8 is cheap.

Why not have both?

Especially if they can be used together somehow?

[x16tial]

I asked multiple times on that other thread for the specs, which don't seem to be forthcoming.  Sometimes you have to operate on incomplete information, so yeah, assumptions are being made, but to some extent, they're being forced, because the information is being withheld. 

David will ultimately make the decision of course.  Above all, I think 2 platforms is a mistake.  If it wasn't a mistake, why doesn't every 8 bit enthusiast develop for the Apple II, and the Atari 2600, and the Vic 20, and the C64 all together, and the others?  If you have to code something more than once, that means you're going to code less individual things.  I want more Titles, not more versions of the same Title.  If it's decided to do the X16, so be it.  But both is a mistake, in my opinion, and the X8 sounds like the better idea, but we're not being allowed access, unfortunately.

[Scott Robison]

1 minute ago, x16tial said:

I asked multiple times on that other thread for the specs, which don't seem to be forthcoming.  Sometimes you have to operate on incomplete information, so yeah, assumptions are being made, but to some extent, they're being forced, because the information is being withheld. 



David will ultimately make the decision of course.  Above all, I think 2 platforms is a mistake.  If it wasn't a mistake, why doesn't every 8 bit enthusiast develop for the Apple II, and the Atari 2600, and the Vic 20, and the C64 all together, and the others?  If you have to code something more than once, that means you're going to code less individual things.  I want more Titles, not more versions of the same Title.  If it's decided to do the X16, so be it.  But both is a mistake, in my opinion, the and X8 sounds like the better idea, but we're not being allowed access, unofortunately.

I doubt it is a matter of anyone is trying to hide the specs. I think it is a matter of they just haven't been provided yet. It's been a couple days, give it time.

59 minutes ago, x16tial said:

• 
  X16 runs at 8Mhz -- 12 Mhz is better
  


• 
  X16 has a TON more RAM -- this doesn't matter with fast SD speeds, that same 8k can be swapped from SDCard rather than switching banks
  


• 
  X16 has twice the video RAM -- this might be the worst part, it means only 1bpp for 640x480, but tricks with sprites, charsets, etc would probably compensate
  


• 
  X16 has 4 expansion slots - provide an i/o bus on the X8?
  


• 
  X16 has a Yamaha sound chip - add on expansion with said i/o bus?
  


• 
  X16 has an IEC disk drive port - this is really kinda silly.  nice nostalgia, but let's be real, who is going to use this?
  


• 
  X16 is infinitely more "hackable" - make the X8 more hackable, provide that i/o bus.  and how about tools to make reprogramming the fpga easy?
  


• 
  X16 has SNES ports - not needed with the usb port
  


• 
  X16 has PS/2 - usb is better
  

I agree 12 MHz is better. More RAM would be better than fast SD based swapping, but it's much less of an issue than trying to load overlays from a 1541 for sure.

Having an IO bus on the X8 is going to be an issue of cost. Almost every line on the edge connector has to map to an IO pin. More IO costs more money. The reason the price of the X8 is able to be as low as estimated is because it can be built with a certain FPGA with a certain level of IO, logic elements, block RAM, etc. Increasing any of those will result in a more expensive bit of hardware.

Agreed on IEC. It is nice from a nostalgia perspective, but it's not like the fast loaders that depend on 1541 are going to work on X16. The best reason I can see for IEC is not disk drives, but perhaps printers if anyone has those they want to use.

[Fenner Machine]

 

Last but one post from David on page 8.

Quote: “The X16 is definitely happening.”

[Scott Robison]

25 minutes ago, VincentF said:

What about the discrete chips ?



Do the X8 have the ability to be built this way ?



Is the bank swapping through SD card that easy ? What is the impact on performances ?



Have you seen the poll on the thread called "Clarity of purpose: why do YOU want the X16?"



I'm not into buying a credit-card-sized board with all the system on a single chip, I have RPi at home and that's enough.

We don't know enough about the X8 design to say for sure, but generally no. If for no other reason, the 256 byte window into VERA isn't possible with discrete chips using the current VERA hardware. It would be possible if VERA were put on a larger board with more IO, but that would increase the cost.

[James Anders Banks]

1 hour ago, x16tial said:

• 
  X16 runs at 8Mhz -- 12 Mhz is better
  


• 
  X16 has a TON more RAM -- this doesn't matter with fast SD speeds, that same 8k can be swapped from SDCard rather than switching banks
  


• 
  X16 has twice the video RAM -- this might be the worst part, it means only 1bpp for 640x480, but tricks with sprites, charsets, etc would probably compensate
  


• 
  X16 has 4 expansion slots - provide an i/o bus on the X8?
  


• 
  X16 has a Yamaha sound chip - add on expansion with said i/o bus?
  


• 
  X16 has an IEC disk drive port - this is really kinda silly.  nice nostalgia, but let's be real, who is going to use this?
  


• 
  X16 is infinitely more "hackable" - make the X8 more hackable, provide that i/o bus.  and how about tools to make reprogramming the fpga easy?
  


• 
  X16 has SNES ports - not needed with the usb port
  


• 
  X16 has PS/2 - usb is better
  

As attached as we all are to the X16, the X8 is just the better idea.  Even the name X16 is a holdover from when the 65C816 was going to be its processor, I believe.



In my opinion we should all bite the bullet, and go with the X8 as the platform.

Releasing both I think is a mistake.  @The 8-Bit Guy, you do this full time, so developing for multiple platforms seems like no big deal.  Most of the rest of us don't have that luxury.

 

If it was about the best spec, people would just go with a PC, Pi etc. This is about chasing a dream. What if, suddenly and magically, the C64 were again available in stores, and was in a percentage of schools? Or even a more basic computer like the Vic 20 or the Dragon 32? Ooh, I could write a game for that, and there's an audience out there for it OUTSIDE OF US NOSTALGIA GEEKS!!!

I'm in favor of the X8, but ultimately this should be about the X16. I certainly don't think it's likely that the US Government would say LET'S PUT AN X16 IN EVERY SCHOOL twelve months from now! But it's possible. It happened with the BBC in the UK. Yes, that was the 8bit era, but bear in mind there are schools teaching Pico8, and anyone knows there's no point teaching 13 year olds on a modern box. It could happen. If not this administration then perhaps the next? Or the next? Fifteen years from now? But it won't happen if someone like David doesn't put it out there first.

Looking at the big picture is essential here, unless you're really happy for another machine for a limited audience of adult enthusiasts.

Horribly patronizing, I know, but let's not forget how quick the modern world changes. This could be an incredible opportunity for change the world. Critical mass!