Change of product direction, good and bad news!

[x16tial]

7 minutes ago, Birk said:

At the risk of throwing a monkey wrench into the discussion... I was thinking (always dangerous) that if one of the issues is to help recoup costs, then why not release the VERA module?  I'd love to have a video interface like the VERA for some other projects.  This would let me connect something like the STM32 to a monitor or TV, or add some cool features to Ben Eater's 6502 kit.  The VERA could become a whole product on it's own with higher priced versions that could go up to 720 or 1080i/p HDMI.  I'd be happy with a version that might still have some bugs in it if there were a simple way to "Field Program" it.  (get it, get it, eh, eh... sorry)  Since it's an FPGA the feature set could evolve over time or allow for some trade offs that might not make sense for the X16 but might for other applications.  Just thinking out loud.

The VERA really is the killer app, million dollar idea here. I hope they take advantage of that fact.

[picosecond]

On 8/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

So, I'm just going to answer a few more concerns about the X8... I made that clear at the beginning. I wanted to release it 6 months ago.

@The 8-Bit Guy, this was a good instinct.

On 8/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

Several people seemed concerned about how much money I was going to make from this project and how the X8 might reduce that...  This project was NEVER about money for me...  My main goal was to have my dream computer, and that other people would have it too. 

It is amazing anyone thinks this is their business, or that you are somehow incapable of managing your own finances.  That being said, it is shocking how much money has been spent before having a solid prototype.  There seems to have been a lot of putting the cart before the horse.  For example, I never understood the rush to release a logo'd keyboard.

On 8/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I suppose I could find some time next week to port Petscii Robots to the X8 for demonstration

You did write that it should only take an hour or two.  Seems like a cheap investment if you care about X8 sceptics taking you seriously.

On 8/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

The X16 has taken much longer to bring to market that I thought.  There were many times where development was halted for 6 months or more because of unsolvable bugs.  And even though we are close to being able to release a kit fo the X16..

Here we get to the root of the problem.  Except for Frank, your team does not have the digital design experience to execute this project, at least not in a timely fashion.  There is no shame in this, nobody emerges from the womb an electronics expert.  Without experience the only path is to learn while doing.  This will always take longer, and starting down dead-end paths is inevitable. But there has been this constant drum-beat to lock down the design and build something, NOW!  I'm sorry, speed, quality and learning on the run are incompatible.  Your choices are build junk, go slow, or seek experienced guidance.

From the outside looking in, X16p appears not close to production ready.  The expansion bus, arguably its main feature, is just not good.  You have already told of other non-working areas that need firmware updates.  Speaking of which, how did you end up in a place where only one person in the world can do a firmware update?  That's just not OK for a project that wants to be serious.  After 35 years of designing digital systems I think I am a decent judge of projects and talent.  The project was stalled for ~6 months by about the simplest possible design bug.  How many marginal bugs are waiting for quantity production to show up? You are in worse shape than you think.

On 8/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I do not believe X8 sales will cannibalize X16p sales.

So what if it does?

I'll make this brief, unlike some commenters here.  I do engineering, not marketing.

There have been many ridiculous comments here, kneecap X8 to prevent competition, don't fragment the ecosystem, yadda yadda yadda.  None of this crap matters.

Let's be real, this is not the next dominant computing platform. This project is a toy targeted at a niche audience.  That's not meant to be pejorative.   I love toys. Watching the development from afar has been enjoyable.  You did this for fun and education, not to put a roof over your head and feed your family.  How did you end up with 1000 case minimum orders and 50% down on gawd knows how many keyboards? 

X8 sounds like a fun project that meets most of the goals you laid out in the first half of video #1.  If you like it, release it.  You don't owe the discussion forum armchair quarterbacks anything.

 

I closing I will make one final pitch against the Cloanto deal.  It's pointless, the only good reason to license firmware is for backwards compatibility.  This was a bad decision, one of the few cases where your instincts let you down. 

If you don't own your firmware you don't really control your project.  Is a small convenience worth having this millstone around your neck forever?  I hope you reconsider.

Best regards and I sincerely hope for your project's success.

[Strider]

I wasn't going to post in this thread, I often "let the chips fall" where they will when I am interested in a project. However, now that I have had time to think about it, I just wanted to add my short little 2 cents.

Pretty much everything David said made sense, and can see the thinking behind it, and I will support whatever comes out the other end of the tunnel.

To be honest, my main reasons for wanting the X16 and/or X8 is as a hobby, and to learn. I want to play around in BASIC again, I want to maybe learn to play with 6502 assembly, all just for fun. I know I can do all of this via emulation, and those that know me on here know I have no problems with emulation. I do most of my retro via emulation becasue I simply don't have space or time for lots of original hardware. Hence my love of the Raspberry Pi. Still, to be able to do this on modern "retro" hardware really appeals to me, and that's what hooked me about this project, that and my love of Commodore of course. I have also seen some of the work posted here by others who already know how to do all of this, and I like what I have seen.

All of that being said, I would actually like a Phase 1 kit AND a Pi sized FPGA Phase 3 board. I want a P1 kit simply becasue it's what fits the image in my head of what I want to play with, I can hack and mod it easily, and I get to solder it all together! The P3 Pi sized board for the sheer convenience of it. As I said, my space and time are limited. So I would have 2 different ways to play with the system. Basically, this is going to be a hobby for me to keep my mind engaged. Something that's hard to do these days to be honest. I love modern hardware, but I know my way around it so well it actually gets boring, so I want to step back in time and learn things I missed back then.

I'm just glad to see it still moving forward as a whole, and while things can and will change along the way, just to see it come to life in the end will be a joy. ?

[Fabio]

1 hour ago, Birk said:

At the risk of throwing a monkey wrench into the discussion... I was thinking (always dangerous) that if one of the issues is to help recoup costs, then why not release the VERA module?  I'd love to have a video interface like the VERA for some other projects.  This would let me connect something like the STM32 to a monitor or TV, or add some cool features to Ben Eater's 6502 kit.  The VERA could become a whole product on it's own with higher priced versions that could go up to 720 or 1080i/p HDMI.  I'd be happy with a version that might still have some bugs in it if there were a simple way to "Field Program" it.  (get it, get it, eh, eh... sorry)  Since it's an FPGA the feature set could evolve over time or allow for some trade offs that might not make sense for the X16 but might for other applications.  Just thinking out loud.

If possible release it also as an 8 bit ISA card  because as a matter of facts a very large number of retro machines are x86  : imagine what a boost an indie developer can get from having two bit planes , a tile mode with hardware scrolling and hardware sprites... better portability also between x86 and commander environments.

[Scott Robison]

30 minutes ago, Fabio said:

If possible release it also as an 8 bit ISA card  because as a matter of facts a very large number of retro machines are x86  : imagine what a boost an indie developer can get from having two bit planes , a tile mode with hardware scrolling and hardware sprites... better portability also between x86 and commander environments.

Given that VERA is Frank's baby, I think that's up to him to decide how to ship it for platforms unrelated to the Commander X-whatever. Unless he's assigned rights to David, it's not really a Commander issue. But given how the FPGA card interfaces with a prototype board, I'm sure it could be used in many other environments, as it is a matter of driving the IO pins in the right way.

[Brad]

Im betting that had the X8 been released months ago and called a “working prototype with reduced feature-set” 99% of this discussion wouldn’t exist. I’m being as nice as I possibly can with my post here, but some of you guys are just whiny. There seem to be plenty of people complaining that they’ll only code for the X16 and won’t code at all if the X8 even exists. So, where’s your contributions to the X16 library? The emulator works. Again, that just sounds like whining.

My opinion is the X8 should have been released when David wanted to because it’s his baby. Whoever told him not to made this problem way worse that it had to be.

[Wavicle]

On 8/21/2021 at 10:31 AM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

Some people seem confused on why I'm in favor of releasing this.  So I'm going to open up and totally lay it out here.  This is my honest opinion on that matter:  The X16 has taken much longer to bring to market that I thought.  There were many times where development was halted for 6 months or more because of unsolvable bugs.  And even though we are close to being able to release a kit fo the X16, it's going to still take more time to get this out the door and the people wanting fully assembled systems will be waiting extra time. The X16 is definitely happening.  The X8 is not meant as a replacement for it.  But, I felt like the X8 with it's super-low price-tag and easy manufacturing could help keep interest in the project much like "The C64 Mini" did, even though everyone was wanting a full-sized machine.  This would keep development on-going, and most anything made for the X8 could easily be ported to the X16 later.    I do not believe X8 sales will cannibalize X16p sales.   And sales of the X8 could even help to fund more development on the X16 surface-mount version and eventual X8-FPGA version.  And for those people that don't want an X8, it seems like the solution is simple.  Just don't buy one.  Buy the X16p instead.  Or wait for phase-2, or whatever.  



 

I've noticed a few people beside myself who have expressed interest in getting a VERA for their own Eater-6502/homebrew-6502 projects that lack video. Any chance that the team would be willing to sell the VERA alone for DIYers?

[TomXP411]

8 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

Wait, how did you know that I ...



... OH! I get it ...



... make that two.

Make that nine.

I mean, I can solder, and the new soldering station my kid got me for Christmas makes it easier... but I don't particularly enjoy it, and if something were to go wrong during assembly, I would have no idea where to start. 

[TomXP411]

5 hours ago, picosecond said:

So what if it does?



I'll make this brief, unlike some commenters here.  I do engineering, not marketing.



There have been many ridiculous comments here, kneecap X8 to prevent competition, don't fragment the ecosystem, yadda yadda yadda.  None of this crap matters.



Let's be real, this is not the next dominant computing platform. This project is a toy targeted at a niche audience.  That's not meant to be pejorative.   I love toys. Watching the development from afar has been enjoyable.  You did this for fun and education, not to put a roof over your head and feed your family.  How did you end up with 1000 case minimum orders and 50% down on gawd knows how many keyboards? 



X8 sounds like a fun project that meets most of the goals you laid out in the first half of video #1.  If you like it, release it.  You don't owe the discussion forum armchair quarterbacks anything.

This, thank you very much.  +1.

 

[TomXP411]

5 hours ago, picosecond said:

@The 8-Bit Guy, 



I closing I will make one final pitch against the Cloanto deal.  It's pointless, the only good reason to license firmware is for backwards compatibility.  This was a bad decision, one of the few cases where your instincts let you down. 



If you don't own your firmware you don't really control your project.  Is a small convenience worth having this millstone around your neck forever?  I hope you reconsider.



Best regards and I sincerely hope for your project's success.

Yeah, I'm kind of wishing they had gone with the open ROMs and used a FOSS 6502 BASIC. There are a couple out there. 

Or if there isn't a suitable one, the community could probably have built an interpreter by now. Add the text editor and assembly environment written by other folks here on the forum, and we'd already be done with the firmware - without paying Cloanto a red cent.