Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Wonderdog · Post by **Wonderdog** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:42 pm

If the formfactor / ports on the X8 could be layed out to line up with the outputs on an RPI, you wouldnt even need to design/produce/distribute a custom case for it....

I wonder how much would it cost (up front investment) to get the X8 from where it is now to an out of the door product in an RPI footprint, preferably with a version of the getting started with programming in assembler (tailored to the X8, maybe with a load of PETSCII robots samples!) guide?

TomXP411 · Post by **TomXP411** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:12 am

3 hours ago, Wonderdog said:

If the formfactor / ports on the X8 could be layed out to line up with the outputs on an RPI, you wouldnt even need to design/produce/distribute a custom case for it....

I wonder how much would it cost (up front investment) to get the X8 from where it is now to an out of the door product in an RPI footprint, preferably with a version of the getting started with programming in assembler (tailored to the X8, maybe with a load of PETSCII robots samples!) guide?

Please no.

I hate the Rasbperry Pi's layout. A computer should only have ports on one side - the back side. The Pi has ports on 3 sides of the board, and it's really frustrating to set up a decent enclosure for it without some kind of adapter board to bring the HDMI ports around the back.

If there's going to be a custom PCB for the X8, it should have all the ports come out the back. For that matter, there's no reason not to go with the Pico ITX form factor, so that it fits in any of the cheap micro PC cases.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:22 am

8 minutes ago, TomXP411 said:

Please no.

I hate the Rasbperry Pi's layout. A computer should only have ports on one side - the back side. The Pi has ports on 3 sides of the board, and it's really frustrating to set up a decent enclosure for it without some kind of adapter board to bring the HDMI ports around the back.

If there's going to be a custom PCB for the X8, it should have all the ports come out the back. For that matter, there's no reason not to go with the Pico ITX form factor, so that it fits in any of the cheap micro PC cases.

I assume (dangerous though that may be) that part of the potential price for the X8 form factor as we've seen so far is that it is already available in that form factor without a custom hardware run. I could be wrong.

EMwhite · Post by **EMwhite** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:27 am

Another opinion on form factor: anything as tiny as a Pi deserves to be velcro'd to the underside of a table... yes it can compute, but it's not a computer. Neither is a set of 32 FPGA / GPU modules loosely coupled into a 'mining rig' zip-tied to a bakers rack. [one] general rule is, anything that you cannot put a monitor on that is thrown around when the keyboard cable moves a few inches doesn't belong on a desktop; unless it's going to be an investment in a semi-custom case (they tried that already and it failed miserably), what's the diff?

TomXP411 · Post by **TomXP411** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:29 am

3 minutes ago, Scott Robison said:

I assume (dangerous though that may be) that part of the potential price for the X8 form factor as we've seen so far is that it is already available in that form factor without a custom hardware run. I could be wrong.

That's a good point. However, as there are no FPGA dev boards that fit a Pi case, I don't think we're in danger of that being an issue, either. ?

Now I'm going to have to go look for a small-ish FPGA dev board with a VGA connector, though... although it's more likely the board will just have a bunch of GPIO pins, and David or Kevin have simply set up a resistor ladder to get VGA out of it that way.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:30 am

1 minute ago, TomXP411 said:

That's a good point. However, as there are no FPGA dev boards that fit a Pi case, I don't think we're in danger of that being an issue, either. ?

Now I'm going to have to go look for a small-ish FPGA dev board with a VGA connector, though... although it's more likely the board will just have a bunch of GPIO pins, and David or Kevin have simply set up a resistor ladder to get VGA out of it that way.

Let me know what you find.

TomXP411 · Post by **TomXP411** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:34 am

1 minute ago, Scott Robison said:

Let me know what you find.

Turns out there are a ton of small dev boards on Amazon in the $40-50 range. None of them have VGA or USB on board though (except maybe a USB UART), but they all seem to have enough GPIO to do the job.

Wonderdog · Post by **Wonderdog** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:01 am

Subjectively speaking, most of the features Dave mentioned that would be lost from the X16 spec vs the X8 (IEC drive hookup, Yamaha chip, expansion slots etc) don't personally bother me - and don't get in the way of the capability I am actually interested in. The RAM limitation is equally a relatively minor issue for me, as working around the limitation (like the good ol' days) seems like part of the fun ? If level/music data etc can be swapped in and out from the SD card on demand at good speeds (the way some large games could when using disc rather than tape could back in the 80's to get around such ram limitations) then there's a still a heck of a lot that can be done in 64+64k. The Sprite and layering capabilites of the VERA being maintained are the big draw for me. Not sure about the 256 byte memory windows stuff, I'll defer that to brighter minds than mine to assess.

Overall though - I'd much rather see an X8 appear at an impulse buy cost, without any soldering requirement, and be available to order imminently - that can be priced with enough overhead built in to generate some funds to complete the full through mounted component X16 development - my worry is that without some compromise and mechanism to bring funds in to complete remaining X16 development, it will never see the light of day beyond a few very expensive kit sales.

Luckarusky · Post by **Luckarusky** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:05 pm

The vibe I'm getting here is that it wouldn't be a good idea to fracture the user base. Stick with the X16 and release it mostly as DIY kits. But there's clear enough people wanting pre-built to justify some form of Kickstarter or funding drive to produce them.

Keeping the system similar to the 6502 architecture and Basic sounds like the direction this will continue in. I like that Assembler Language is so up-front though. Honestly, the hardware is more or less done besides tweaking specifics until the worse of the bugs are ironed out.

So my advice, refine what you have and stick with the X16 to avoid fracturing the user base. Start by selling the computer as a DIY, and focus on community and tools so people can make their own software like Music Trackers and tools for easily using the system. Create a drive separately for funding pre-built models, and you'll find plenty of volunteers who want assurance in a competently pre-built machine. (Yes, myself included.)

Basically, I'm interested because this is a community-driven machine where people contribute code, games and ideas over corporate owned companies or studios. Old-style stuff with modern production value sensibilities. That's what I want to see.

tsvenson · Post by **tsvenson** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:59 pm

On 8/21/2021 at 7:55 AM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

So, I just wanted to address some of the questions/concerns about the X8.

Just to reiterate, BASIC code should be compatible unless it uses a bunch of pokes and peeks. You could literally take the SD card out of the X8, stick in in the X16 and the code should run.

For machine language programs, as for the differences in how the Vera is accessed, it's not nearly as many here are thinking. I saw one person who seemed irate over the idea that we'd be throwing away all of the coding work people have done.  It's still the same features, the same registers, and same behaviors. The sprites, the layers, the PSG, it's all the same.  The primary difference is how you copy data to VRAM. I suppose with some software this could be a major problem. But in most cases, I suspect it would be less than an hour worth of work to convert a game from X16 to X8 or vice-versa. I haven't actually ported Petscii Robots yet (since I don't know if this product will see the light of day) but I suspect I could have it running on the X8 in maybe an hour or two. It's nowhere nearly as difficult as porting between something like the VIC-20 and C64 which have very different video/audio systems.

The reason it has USB, or more specifically, the reason it CAN have USB is because this is all handled by the FPGA. There was no way we could handle USB on a 6502 system due to the enormous complexity of USB. However, the USB support would be limited to keyboards and controllers.

For the person that asked why on earth you would want this and compared it to a C64 and then saying a C32 instead. Well, the main benefits are: half the price and immediate availability. As i've mentioned before, the X16e might never see the light of day because it is going to be dependent on the X16p being a success before that gets developed. But we could have this available now. And it will be so darned cheap, there's no reason you couldn't have this along side the X16p, or use this to develop on and wait for the X16e or whatever.

For those asking where to donate. I haven't set anything up yet. I've already seen a few paypal donations come in. But I'd rather people wait until we have some official account for the X16 development.

Okay, I want an X8 now too, and the P1 X16 to test my solder skills on...

Now to see if I can edit my vote on the poll to reflect my new [updated] optinion ?