Commander X8 Disussion

Oldrooster · Post by **Oldrooster** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:00 am

well thank you, your comments are appreciated and yes, it looks somewhat retro, retro looks, techniques, build, everything except specs, which adapt to the lower cost of some IC's such as memory both for the computer specs (it can address massive massive amounts with a trivially cheap MMU) and the display. You couldn't dream of large memories in retro times because of the cost, however applying the same video design rules from years ago to todays prices results in some better specifications.

If you think the PCB looks good, can't wait till I can release the copper designs.. now they are breathtaking, even to non-hobbyists.

Tatwi · Post by **Tatwi** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:00 am

Yes, provided it won't cost more than $100 CAD to get it to my door. I'd rather that cost be closer to $70 CAD to be honest.

Some feedback on the board layout:

It's irritating that the USB ports and the SD card slot aren't also on the back edge, because it would be easier to mount the board inside something if all the connections were on the same edge.

The reset switch is positioned between the video cable and the power cable. I could see this being fumbly and irritating to use. Stick it on either the right or left end of the rear edge so it's unobstructed.

Pin headers for a power switch, reset button, and a power led would also assist in mounting the board into one's desired case.

Honestly, a reliable small board like this is far and away more appealing to me than one built from discreet parts. Especially if it's cheap enough to just buy a new one if it does break (and perhaps send the broken one back to be refurbished by someone who has the skills and tools to do so). I don't need to look at a giant board full of chips to understand the architecture, diagrams with explanations are fine, better even. Guess how many times I opened my VIC20 and looked inside it to understand how it was running the software or how a POKE command was accomplishing its task.

I would buy an X8, because it's an affordable 8 bit computer that is small enough to use at my desk without cluttering it up or otherwise getting in my way. I mean, l loved looking at my Compaq Deskpro 4000 setup, but I am much happier leaving that portion of my 6' x 6' personal space clear for other hobbies. Same with the C64c that I sold and the VIC20 that I packed away in a tub of other neat stuff when I finally ran out of shelf space.

When David revealed the X16 design, I completely lost interest in the project for two reasons:

Too rich for my blood!

I don't have space for something large.

An X8-like device is all I am interested in (FPGA based, not software emulation).

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:33 pm

My overall thoughts on the X8 (now that the Megathread which started to metastasize into Yet Another Why This Project Should Be A Different Project argument in its last few pages has been locked):

I did not worry about "Osborne effects", but thought there was was a risk that if released before the X16 comes out in some physical form, there was a risk it would set the broader concept of what the X16 system is.

If the team wanted to release the X8, I favored releasing it alongside the X16p DIY and a capped number of X16p built boards

I also thought that the X8 design needed whatever tweaking was workable to open it up to making extension "hats" for it ... with an SPI bus already used for loading the Basic/Kernel binary on "reboot" and for micro-SD card access, only one pin and a register bit somewhere in the address space would be required to make one external SPI device available, and with a single external glue logic chip, 2 external select lines could be readily selected. (Two is as many as you need, since one can be used to define a set of extended selects in a GPIO extender or serial shift register, and the other to select output of the currently defined select).

In any event, I'd get an X8 kit including keyboard if I could, but I'd be more likely to use it for tinkering with things on a breadboard if it had the option for a hat that let me add more GPIO.

On 10/14/2021 at 10:01 PM, Mtemal said:

I would hope that sourcing some parts in the UK wouldn't drive the costs of the X8 up too much but I'm sure there will be some kind of impact. It's worth thinking about how the FPGA shortage in the Automotive sector is now bleeding into other industries (besides this community of course).

The X8 wouldn't have been a through-hole kit, it would have been a small board made with surface mount parts and produced in batches by a producer equipped to produce boards like that efficiently.

The FPGA they are using seems to be a fairly popular part, but it's not in stock at Mouser ... they have 27,000+ on order, with two September 2022 delivery dates.

EMwhite · Post by **EMwhite** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:42 pm

On 10/15/2021 at 10:33 AM, BruceMcF said:

but it's not in stock at Mouser ... they have 27,000+ on order, with two September 2022 delivery dates.

Such as shame, those pics above were "right-perty*" and had 8 out of 12 people sold. Now what?

(Also, what happened in the mega-thread? did somebody drop an F-bomb? I see the mod-squad shut down the show)

*a Tex Avery - Southern Wolf reference as voiced by Daws Butler

Tatwi · Post by **Tatwi** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:19 pm

On 10/15/2021 at 10:42 AM, EMwhite said:

(Also, what happened in the mega-thread? did somebody drop an F-bomb? I see the mod-squad shut down the show)

Extremely off topic ramblings which lead to moderate hostilities, because nerds will nerd. It's what we do. There were pages of off topic discussion, which I am sure a mod would have been happy to move to its own thread if the mod had more time to do that kind of thing; No one wants to shut down dialog, but it is important to organize and guide it to some degree.

Please, stay on topic in this thread. Thank ye! ?

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:22 pm

On 10/15/2021 at 10:42 AM, EMwhite said:

Such as shame, those pics above were "right-perty*" and had 8 out of 12 people sold. Now what?

It's a moot point for the original X8 prototype, but if they ended up deciding to launch first with a similar board that is more X16 software compatible, they could likely source a quantity of an appropriate FPGA from somewhere and set that quantity as the cap on the initial crowdfund.

From the brief comment by David (referred to above), Frank is first working on an X16e prototype (one might speculate about that process leading to a new version of the X8 that is more compatible with the X16, but it would be pure speculation), and on past history, if something comes from that which leads the project team to settle on a new release path, it will be announced when it is settled, and not when it is still under consideration ...

... and the last we heard, Micheal Steil has another project that is taking his time at present, after which he will return to working on the Kernel development, which it seems likely they are going to get finished before considering a crowdfund or pre-orders for the X16p ...

... so until one or the other of those get to an update milestone{+}, speculating on FPGA availability would be premature.

_____________

{+ Bearing in mind that ASKING the team about how close they are to an update milestone is asking for an update, and nagging for updates is against the T&C of the site.}

EMwhite · Post by **EMwhite** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:01 pm

You just said a lot of 'things', but good things where good = this -> that and since -> therefore. So, barring an October surprise it's probably safe to check back in 3 months which seems fair.

As prolific as 8BG's YouTube career is (the backyard shack that YouTube built), an update "Here's where we are..." and an official announcement / update each quarter would probably go a long way but that's just me talking.

Thanks for that reply.

Mtemal · Post by **Mtemal** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:36 pm

On 10/15/2021 at 10:33 AM, BruceMcF said:

My overall thoughts on the X8 (now that the Megathread which started to metastasize into Yet Another Why This Project Should Be A Different Project argument in its last few pages has been locked):

I did not worry about "Osborne effects", but thought there was was a risk that if released before the X16 comes out in some physical form, there was a risk it would set the broader concept of what the X16 system is.

If the team wanted to release the X8, I favored releasing it alongside the X16p DIY and a capped number of X16p built boards

I also thought that the X8 design needed whatever tweaking was workable to open it up to making extension "hats" for it ... with an SPI bus already used for loading the Basic/Kernel binary on "reboot" and for micro-SD card access, only one pin and a register bit somewhere in the address space would be required to make one external SPI device available, and with a single external glue logic chip, 2 external select lines could be readily selected. (Two is as many as you need, since one can be used to define a set of extended selects in a GPIO extender or serial shift register, and the other to select output of the currently defined select).

In any event, I'd get an X8 kit including keyboard if I could, but I'd be more likely to use it for tinkering with things on a breadboard if it had the option for a hat that let me add more GPIO.

The X8 wouldn't have been a through-hole kit, it would have been a small board made with surface mount parts and produced in batches by a producer equipped to produce boards like that efficiently.

The FPGA they are using seems to be a fairly popular part, but it's not in stock at Mouser ... they have 27,000+ on order, with two September 2022 delivery dates.

Newark had the ICE40UP5k in stock a couple of days ago in their UK store. Now it looks like its backordered until February 2022:

https://www.newark.com/lattice-semiconductor/ice40up5k-sg48i/fpga-ice40-ultraplus-39-i-o-qfn/dp/50AJ3298?st=ICE40UP5K-SG48I

Mtemal · Post by **Mtemal** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:50 pm

Updated Main post with David's other posts about the X8.

Janne Sirén · Post by **Janne Sirén** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:51 pm

Quote

Understood. At inception less information was available. People with new information make appropriate (for them) adjustments to their plans based on new information coming to light.

I'm all for people making whatever strikes their fancy. Claims that what David wants is simply a matter of optimizing a discrete alternative are taking liberties with the word simply. If it is simple, those who think it is should do it and show it to David. He is not unapproachable.

Note that I'm not saying you are clamoring for this. It is a general observation from recent posts. Ultimately some posts seem like they belong in a different thread.

@Scott Robison

I hope this is a suitable thread to answer in, coming from the X8 poll thread. Moving onwards from any of that debate, I guess my question/point is how/what do you perceive the unique sales proposition being for an FPGA-only X8 or X16? There are certainly FPGA-only computers already out, but usually they have some other USP such as a case/compatibility/legacy with ZX Spectrum Next or the MEGA65, or they are lean-mean FPGA monsters like the MiSTer family, the ZX-Uno family or training boards such as Nexys. Others, like the Foenix computers, have the unique proposition of offering several discrete chips such as "real" processors and several hardware sound chips in addition to FPGAs.

What would be the unique sales proposition of a simple FPGA board like X8/16 that could easily run on any existing FPGA platform that are already being produced? I am genuinely curious about your answer and I hope my question also illustrates the area where I think it would be beneficial for the X16 project to continue having a clear message and a clear point.