Current state of the audio options?

[AndyMt]

I agree that the PSG is very capable - so much so that I fear the YM2151 might be dropped. Unfortunately for the PSG there is no music and soundfx available on the internet. For the YM2151 I can use VGM files as sources. I'm not a good music and sound composer/artist, but I know someone who provides me with that. But he won't go into learning a new tracker, unless the PSG is added to Deflemask...

[rje]

Given the desire to entice the demo scene and make 1990s-style “Intel 80286” games reasonably possible, I can’t see the YM being dropped.  However, it sounds VERY reasonable to me to have the PSG + YM2151 together.

[Fnord42]

First a disclaimer: I am very much a non-expert in audio matters, so explanations and clarifications from the experts are very welcome! ?



To be honest, I don't know how I should feel about the audio situation.

First of all, I'm not sure why we would need two separate sound options. Do they complement each other (like, one does midi, and the other does pcm audio)? Or are they more or less redundant and just there so people can use whichever they like more?

Having listened to some sound examples of the YM2151, I must say that it very much reminds me of the MIDI sounds of 90's PC games which were invariably much worse than their Amiga counterparts. PC MIDI just always sounded incredibly cheap to me back then. Also, almost all of them have this special sound that I can't really put into words, but find very straining to listen to for more than a few minutes. (As opposed to Amiga or classic SID Chiptune music, which I can listen to for hours.) It feels like the higher frequency range is very "crowded", which makes my ears go numb quite quickly. Does that make sense to anyone else?

On the other hand, the Vera PSG example that StinkerB06 linked to sounds very good to me. It feels much more Chiptune-y and - in my opinion - more appropriate for what the X16 aims to be.

So I think I have, in a way, the reverse fear of AndyMt: I fear that the presence of the Yamaha chip might deter people from making music that actually sounds good (to me).

Regarding the availability of music, sfx and software: Do we really have to fear that the Vera PSG would be shunned by the demo community and/or authors of tracker software like Deflemask? (This is NOT a rethorical question - I honestly don't know, but I feel like it might not really be an issue, once the design is finished and out there.) And is it conceivable to build converters for the existing sound material?

And finally one technical question: Is any of the two currently considered options (YM2151 or Vera PSG) capable of playing MOD files in reasonable quality, given the software?

 

[SlithyMatt]

Actually, there are 4 sound options, including the PCM (which isn't too useful for music) and the SAA1099, which is pretty redundant with the PSG. 

As for MOD files, the X16 would have a hard time playing them, as they are based on sampled intruments, and assume 4 PCM channels.  The X16 only has 2 and would require software to pitch and playback the samples, which means the CPU is going to prevent you from doing very much. 

[Guybrush]

Well, one big difference between VERA PSG and YM2151 is that YM supports only sine waveforms, while VERA PSG supports pulse, sawtooth and triangle waveforms. That's something you immediately notice and what gives these solutions different "feels".

So, if you want FM music, you can use YM, and if you want something more reminiscent of the old 8-bit sound, you can use VERA PSG. Of course, PSG lacks filters and modulation capabilities of the SID chip, but that was the case for pretty much every sound chip of that era.

[Fnord42]

52 minutes ago, SlithyMatt said:

Actually, there are 4 sound options, including the PCM (which isn't too useful for music) and the SAA1099, which is pretty redundant with the PSG. 



As for MOD files, the X16 would have a hard time playing them, as they are based on sampled intruments, and assume 4 PCM channels.  The X16 only has 2 and would require software to pitch and playback the samples, which means the CPU is going to prevent you from doing very much. 

I see, I got the impression that the SAA1099 will likely be dropped, but I missed the PCM somehow.

Regarding MOD files: Too bad, that would have been awesome. (And then there wouldn't be any concerns regarding available audio material. ? )

I suspect that it was probably considered but dropped because the hardware needed for that would be too complex/expensive to be included in the X16. (Or maybe just not what David and the team envisioned for the X16, since MOD files were mostly a thing of the 16-bit era, I guess.)

[AndyMt]

I have some pretty nice new YM2151 audio tracks here for my next projects. They are as the composer I'm working with put it: 're-arranged to modern standards'. They sound more like what I knew from the Amiga.

I assume we will get the YM plus the PSG. For my projects I'll use the YM for music and the PSG an/or PCM for sound effects.

As for converting music from other formats to the PSG: that will be very hard as the capabilities are so different.

 

[SlithyMatt]

1 hour ago, Guybrush said:

Well, one big difference between VERA PSG and YM2151 is that YM supports only sine waveforms, while VERA PSG supports pulse, sawtooth and triangle waveforms. That's something you immediately notice and what gives these solutions different "feels".

Actually, the YM2151 indeed has the same 4 waveforms as the PSG. And you have a lot more flexibility in using them, at the cost of an extremely high learning curve compared to the PSG.

[StinkerB06]

10 hours ago, SlithyMatt said:

Actually, the YM2151 indeed has the same 4 waveforms as the PSG. And you have a lot more flexibility in using them, at the cost of an extremely high learning curve compared to the PSG.

I'm pretty sure those 4 waveforms are for the YM's low-frequency oscillator (LFO) that modulates either amplitude or phase.

[rje]

18 hours ago, SlithyMatt said:

Actually, the YM2151 indeed has the same 4 waveforms as the PSG. And you have a lot more flexibility in using them, at the cost of an extremely high learning curve compared to the PSG.

To add my comment about that: I probably won't use the YM2151.  I lack the motivation to climb the learning curve, and I don't compose music anyhow.  So SID-like things are as far as I can go.

I never did appreciate MIDI music, either, so maybe this is a preference thing.