Current state of the audio options?

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:04 am

On 8/5/2020 at 10:24 AM, StinkerB06 said:

One of my suggestions for the X16 is to remove the SAA chip entirely, as the VERA PSG makes it redundant, which brings the channel count down to 25. Having a native tracker program work with 31 channels seems pretty hard, meanwhile it's far easier for the C64's 3.

To be fair, it IS Dave's Dream Computer, and he not only has an impressive collection of 8bit computer systems as the 8-Bit Guy, but also a very impressive collection of 8-bit keyboards as the 8-bit Keys guy. Just because a channel is available doesn't imply that each native tracker has to work with all native sources. Indeed, if everyone tried to use every sound chip, that would reduce the the variety of 8-bit chiptunes that we will be hearing on the system.

On 8/24/2020 at 2:01 AM, SlithyMatt said:

Actually, there are 4 sound options, including the PCM (which isn't too useful for music) and the SAA1099, which is pretty redundant with the PSG.

If you don't think that the PCM will be useful for percussion samples, I'm wondering how broad a range of music you've heard. There's a reason that synthesizer groups still recruit a drummer. It might not be all that critical for chiptunes, but for actual music it's a great addition to the mix.

SlithyMatt · Post by **SlithyMatt** » Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:18 pm

3 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

If you don't think that the PCM will be useful for percussion samples, I'm wondering how broad a range of music you've heard. There's a reason that synthesizer groups still recruit a drummer. It might not be all that critical for chiptunes, but for actual music it's a great addition to the mix.

That's why I didn't say "entirely useless". This is the only viable use case, and something I've talked about before with my music collaborators. But totally recorded tracks are just not practical, which was my point.

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:35 pm

1 hour ago, SlithyMatt said:

That's why I didn't say "entirely useless". This is the only viable use case, and something I've talked about before with my music collaborators. But totally recorded tracks are just not practical, which was my point.

If they were usable for playing entire prerecorded tracks or tracks generated on the fly, it wouldn't be an eight bit system..

I just wouldn't put " useful in filling the glaring hole of the other chip for good percussion instruments as "not entirely useless" .. because while I am not a percussionist, I've known some, and they are not only in the habit of carrying sticks, but are well practiced at hitting things with their sticks, repeatedly and with great force!

"Not used in the way you may be used to in a modern system" might be a safer way to put it.

Fnord42 · Post by **Fnord42** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:23 am

TBH I am still a bit disappointed about the X16's sound capabilities, mostly because I had hoped it would be able to play MOD files, which does not seem to be possible with the current hardware. (Despite having four(?) different chips with overlapping capabilities, which also feels a bit weird to me.)

I assume that it is much too late to change the general design of the X16's sound architecture (and, more importantly, that the core team probably had good reasons to go for the chips they chose, that I am not aware of).

But I have been thinking if it might be feasible to build a sound card for the X16 instead. I haven't investigated the topic thoroughly yet, but the fact that there are complete MOD players consisting of not much more than an ATMega32 and a TDA1543, makes it seem quite doable. To clarify, I don't want something that just plays a MOD that you throw at it, but rather the necessary hardware that would enable the X16 to play MOD files (for example as background music in a game) - you should be able to upload samples/instruments and then play them at different frequencies, much like the Amiga's Paula chip did, If I understood it correctly.

What do you guys think? Is this a good idea or a bad one, and why?

SlithyMatt · Post by **SlithyMatt** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:55 pm

Basically, you have half the PCM capability of an Amiga and a pretty good FM synthesis chip, all working with a 6502. Like David said, you can do something LIKE a MOD file. But a real MOD file has memory requirements that aren't feasible for 8-bit. It's not going to be background, but the whole application.

If you think the sound capabilities of the X16 are "disappointing", you have absurd expectations for an 8-bit computer.

#GetARaspberryPi

Fnord42 · Post by **Fnord42** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:19 pm

Judging from your response, I might have sounded more negative than I had intended.

Let me clarify: I don't think that the X16's audio capabilities are disappointing. I was personally a bit disappointed because I had hoped that it could also do MOD files. MOD files have very high retro nostalgia value for me, but that was maybe just a bit much to hope for. Additionally it's probably also a matter of personal preference, because I just don't like the sound of the YM2151 very much.

That being said, the current audio capabilities are of course not bad at all - Amiga-like sound capabilities just would have been the icing on the cake for me, so to speak.

You guys are doing an awesome job, and I didn't mean to step on anyones toes; sorry if I did.

StinkerB06 · Post by **StinkerB06** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:54 am

8 hours ago, Fnord42 said:

Let me clarify: I don't think that the X16's audio capabilities are disappointing. I was personally a bit disappointed because I had hoped that it could also do MOD files. MOD files have very high retro nostalgia value for me, but that was maybe just a bit much to hope for. Additionally it's probably also a matter of personal preference, because I just don't like the sound of the YM2151 very much.

That being said, the current audio capabilities are of course not bad at all - Amiga-like sound capabilities just would have been the icing on the cake for me, so to speak.

To me, the YM2151 FM chip in the CX16 feels very Genesis-like (since that system has a very-similar chip). It was the FM chip found in a lot of 16-bit arcade games, and was also part of the SHARP X68000 Japanese computer.

The addition of the VERA PSG (which is more SID-like) and the SAA1099 (which was a pretty advanced AY/SN7 sibling for its time) pushes the X16 beyond the level of what I think is "8-bit" music. It would sound more like 16-bit (or even 32-bit?) arcade games, as the channel count currently surpasses even the PS1's SPU.

The 8 MHz 65C02S probably won't be able to catch up with playback, so the music engine would have to be heavily cut in features for it to work within a game or demo. Or just follow a simple convention: Don't use all channels at once.

Miklós Pathy · Post by **Miklós Pathy** » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:54 pm

On 9/12/2020 at 1:23 PM, Fnord42 said:

TBH I am still a bit disappointed about the X16's sound capabilities, mostly because I had hoped it would be able to play MOD files, which does not seem to be possible with the current hardware. (Despite having four(?) different chips with overlapping capabilities, which also feels a bit weird to me.)

I suppose it is totally possible to play mods on the PSG. Obviously it needs all the processing power of the 65C02, so the CX16 will not do much more in the same time.

desertfish · Post by **desertfish** » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:13 pm

There have been some mod players for the C64 even (requiring a Ram expander to hold the mod file) the sound quality is abysmal ofcourse compared to the Amiga but it sortof kinda works. So I imagine it's totally doable on the commander x16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3HPX6FpysY

TomXP411 · Post by **TomXP411** » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:26 pm

Welll, I used to play MODs on my 8MHz PC... so the Commander should totally be able to do it, even if it's cheating by manipulating the volume register directly.

I was under the impression there would be a way to play PCM audio, but I may have misunderstood what the PSG was.