Commander X16 vs. Mega 65

paulscottrobson · Post by **paulscottrobson** » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:28 pm

2 hours ago, John Chow Seymour said:

Thank you for teaching me that!

So, the Mega65 page at C64 Wiki says "Dual soft-SIDs + dual 8-bit DACs". But, the Mega65 page itself says "four soft SIDs (and the ability to use hard-SIDs in a cartridge) plus four-channel stereo 16-bit digital audio." So I guess sound design is still being decided in that project as well.

Would seem so. Though the M65 is almost entirely FPGA - you can make one out of a Nexsys A7 that is identical except for some of the connectors. As you can with Vera, but not of course with anything on the main board.

troj · Post by **troj** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:34 am

On 12/1/2020 at 7:08 PM, John Chow Seymour said:

I enjoy soldering. The X16 will ("99% sure") be available in kit form; looking at the Mega65 it seems unlikely with all that SMD. Yes, soldering your own computer is impractical. But this is a hobby, it's okay to have fun doing something impractical.

For me, the kit form is a huge portion of the draw.

At the same time I was learning to program on 8 bit computers, I was also doing a bit of learning to assemble electronics. I reminisce about HeathKit projects, and helped assemble one of their computers.

I'm also old enough, with the eyesight to show for it, and suffer a bit from tremors, so soldering through-hole is about all I can do. SMD components, even the larger ones, are essentially impossible.

Even if it costs more, the X16 in kit form is a huge draw for me.

isedwards · Post by **isedwards** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:36 pm

I really respect the MEGA65 project and what they are achieving. With the injection molded replica case, refurbished floppy drives and completely custom keyboard (even managing to recreate the size of the original C65 spacebar and achieving the PETSCII chars on the front of the keys) they really are bringing Commodore's final 8-bit machine to life.

For me the appeal of the X16 is the simple VIC-20 like architecture, the real [socketed] 65C02, strong community and the potential for completely new software and hardware add-ons.

Only... this time I get to choose the essentials that need to be purchased instead of my parents!

It's also an ideal educational system for teaching children hardware, assembly language, computing history etc.

The X16 development has been a bit below radar, I'm hoping once it is released there will be regular YouTube content. If so, I'm all in. In fact, I'd love to be a patreon of an official dedicated X16 YouTube channel with curated content from the community and thoughts/discussion from the project leaders. I would even have some ideas for the format and some episode ideas...

Back to you in the studio @Perifractic

mrdoornbos · Post by **mrdoornbos** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:52 pm

12 minutes ago, isedwards said:

The X16 development has been a bit below radar, I'm hoping once it is released there will be regular YouTube content. If so, I'm all in. In fact, I'd love to be a patreon of an official dedicated X16 YouTube channel with curated content from the community and thoughts/discussion from the project leaders. I would even have some ideas for the format and some episode ideas...

I think (hope?) that the handful of people "in charge" of the project are heads down (and probably have "day jobs"). But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's concerned about the lack of any updates. Wouldn't really take but a few minutes every month to say "here's where we are and here's what's left".

I don't want to write software for the X16 at this point because from where I'm sitting it looks stalled. I suspect (again hope?) I'm wrong about this, but I've been involved in many many community projects over the years and most of them stall out right at this stage.

troj · Post by **troj** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:05 pm

1 hour ago, mrdoornbos said:

I think (hope?) that the handful of people "in charge" of the project are heads down (and probably have "day jobs"). But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's concerned about the lack of any updates. Wouldn't really take but a few minutes every month to say "here's where we are and here's what's left".

I don't want to write software for the X16 at this point because from where I'm sitting it looks stalled. I suspect (again hope?) I'm wrong about this, but I've been involved in many many community projects over the years and most of them stall out right at this stage.

I get that, but I also understand not giving frequent updates, because updates lead to questions. Especially when the team is at a point where they've not taken anything from those interested - once they start collecting money, then expectations change and periodic updates are a good thing.

For me, personally, I'm mostly interested in updates when something is accomplished.

The last update I recall was the team was debugging a boot problem on the latest board revision, other than Perifractic giving us an update on some line art and case/keyboard designs. Until something changes, I don't see value (instead, I see headaches) of "We're still debugging the board" - if they start giving public updates about that, then they have to handle the influx of commentary about "Have you done this?" "You should try this?" etc.

mrdoornbos · Post by **mrdoornbos** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:18 pm

I’m not expecting them to change or asking them to. Just speaking for me.

rje · Post by **rje** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:00 pm

On 11/28/2020 at 2:14 PM, Perifractic said:

Hello Commandos,

As you know the Mega 65 is another great project and based on Commodore's never-released C65 computer. Obviously the hardware is a bit different as it is FPGA-based, but I was curious, what do you prefer about the Commander X16 (chips aside) and its specifications and software, over the Mega 65's OS (if anything). What drew you here?

Your friend in retro, Perifractic

My summary, for Perifractic.

Chips aside,

Here's what I like about the Commander X16 over the Mega 65:

The preferred intent to use COTS hardware (and some cost control).

Faster/better than the 64, but isn't "out of my league" and over my head.

The memory model is simple and "smells like" a Commodore.

Banked RAM is usable, fun, and handy.

Commodore-friendly expanded KERNAL + hacked BASIC.

The banked ROM allows additional things beyond the KERNAL + BASIC.

The keyboard port (and the WASD keyboard! (I love it!!))

Up to four "joysticks". Yes, this is a good feature!

And, unasked for, here's what I like about the Mega 65 over the Commander X16:

A hacked Commodore 65 ROM.

Sounds like the video is easier to program for.

Dual SIDs.

HDMI out.

Most of these points leverage my familiarity with the Commodore platform in general.

I was considering getting the Mega65 prototyping board a few years ago, before the Commander X16 videos came out. The videos switched me over, because, as I mentioned, the scaled-down philosophy hit me in several ways as closer to what I wanted.

... I suppose this means if the Commander X16 had the Commodore 65 ROM, and VERA's sound generator was essentially dual SIDs, and VERA's graphics were "easier to use" (even at the expense of power), that I'd be more satisfied with the X16, but meh.

Perifractic · Post by **Perifractic** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:27 pm

I think (hope?) that the handful of people "in charge" of the project are heads down (and probably have "day jobs"). But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's concerned about the lack of any updates. Wouldn't really take but a few minutes every month to say "here's where we are and here's what's left".
I don't want to write software for the X16 at this point because from where I'm sitting it looks stalled. I suspect (again hope?) I'm wrong about this, but I've been involved in many many community projects over the years and most of them stall out right at this stage.

Please understand that the openness we've already exhibited is fairly unprecedented. I can't think of many projects that had 20,000 people following things 2 years before crowdfunding even started.

That said, if you look at the Facebook David did respond very recently with an update that we're resolving some issues with the second prototype board.

I also posted an update in official announcements just yesterday.

But yes, every time we make an announcement it does trigger a number of questions, and answering those can take time away from the actual work. So it's a balance.

Thanks for understanding.

rje · Post by **rje** » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:42 pm

2 hours ago, mrdoornbos said:

I think (hope?) that the handful of people "in charge" of the project are heads down (and probably have "day jobs"). But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's concerned about the lack of any updates. Wouldn't really take but a few minutes every month to say "here's where we are and here's what's left".

An 8 Bit Guy update video would be welcome, it's true.

I don't want them "stalled", but I'm kind of glad they're going slow, because I'm toying with a "shell" interpreter on the X16, and it's going QUITE slow as I haven't written a compiler since university, a looong tiiime agoooo. Maybe this thing can be useful, and maybe I can squeeze it into 16KB, and maybe it can be finished enough to go onto one of the ROM banks, maybe maybe maybe... a total long shot, but worth shooting for.

Of course, even if it doesn't squeeze down into 16K and isn't done by any perceived deadline, it can still be software. The trick is first making it work and be useful.

m00dawg · Post by **m00dawg** » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:54 am

11 hours ago, Perifractic said:

That said, if you look at the Facebook David did respond very recently with an update that we're resolving some issues with the second prototype board.

I too have been a bit concerned about the lack of updates, just because there's some clear momentum happening in the community and excitement that I think is important to the cause and shouldn't be overlooked. But I do understand folks are busy, and it's a pandemic! I quoted the above just to point out some of us have fled Facebook and no longer wish to use that platform. It's certainly a good community over there, but I think all the work done on this site should be celebrated and be really the first place information is posted. Just my $0.02 - I think ya'll are doing a great job, particularly given how much of a dumpster fire 2020 has been and look forward to things yet to come!

Now, back to the question at hand. I've been keeping an eye on the Mega65 too though I don't know it's ins and outs. I'm definitely excited about all the New-Retro enthusiasm! I rather liked the C256 Fenix as well, though for different reasons than the X16. In brief, what draws me to the X16:

It's own platform, granted with some compatibility with Commodore, but not an enhanced C64 compatible machine - it has departures in design which I like

External keyboard

Expansion Slots (for MIDI, Network, etc.)

The RAM/ROM banks are a really clever way to manage larger amounts of RAM

It doesn't seem to have some the complicated bagged of the C64 and is easy-ish to learn on (more VERA tutorials might be nice though)

Nearly 16-bit graphics, but overall it's not too powerful and still largely will require assembly which I have found incredibly fun to learn (haven't touched it since college when it was LC2 and MIPS). I'm not too interested in writing in other languages as I can already do that on a modern machine

Limited use of FPGAs

Potentially different default sound solutions (I ❤️ the SID a ton too but I thought at least evaluating FM and trying to use real chips is an interesting approach)

Basic kernel/OS and full direct access to the hardware

Offline-first. It might be a great machine to do computing on without distractions (I'm looking forward to tracking music, maybe using it to write blog posts offline)

But could be online capable (excited to see if we end up seeing any X16 BBS's pop up, for example), but only if/when I want it

I know it's debated, but I don't like the all-in-one design of the Mega65. I know many do but I never found all-in-ones good to type on and they are an odd form factor to store. I do like the floppy though, maybe in concept if not practice.

I do have a wishlist of things I would like to see but given the goals of the project are unlikely, but overall I'm extremely excited about the direction of the X16. I think it hits the concept of a modern Retro computer perfectly without going too far overboard. I feel like it's less about nostalgia and retro and more about simplicity and approachability whereas the Mega seems more about nostalgia first. Not trying to take away anything from them by the way!

But the X16 seems like a great computer to learn how a computer works in more ways than an Arduino or Pi can. I know assembly can be scary for some but it does really help in learning, on an intimate level, how computers work - including modern ones, and it's nice to see a compelling computer which, in a way, celebrates it by necessity?

Simplicity is maybe the wrong word here, but so is Retro. "Retro" games on modern hardware pays homage but often I find it awkward as they're imposing false limitations that are of their own making that don't actually exist. Some games have done it amazingly well (Shovel Night comes to mind) but overall, the X16 will have games the X16 is capable of without sort of "faking it." and the limitations will be inherent to the platform rather than wishfully invented.

I dunno, I'm not articulating that well but it's the thing I find most compelling about it. I don't feel like the X16 is paying homage to retro computer or looking backwards. Rather it's, well, David said he wanted a modern successor to the VIC20 and that's essentially what this. Modern creature comforts, enhanced designs, but still a computer of fundamentals.