Commander X16

14 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

Bad habit as an economist ... when I say cost, I mean the cost to the seller to bring it to market, not the price to the buyer.



What would blow out supply cost would be providing full technical support for a kit build. That would definitely cost more to bring to market and support.



However, there is a strong perception among people that there is a big cost reduction in bringing a full parts kit to  the market, for a project of this scale ... not mass production but not small batch production either.



I am guessing that is based an imagining the extra build cost and not for a minute imagining the extra stocking costs of a full parts kit... plus extra packaging cost and greater risk of damage in shipment (bent pins are why they ship Arduino Shields with pin headers to solder on, not build cost).



At the likely scale of this project, the build overheads will not be as high as people think when they are used to small runs.



I'm not saying anything has been said that the PRICE would be higher, just that the full cost to bring a complete parts kit to market and to bring an assembled board to market would not be as far apart as a lot of people imagine ... and it's up in the air which one would be  the lower supply cost.

If there's a kit version, I expect each chip and component will come individually boxed and labeled, because that's obviously the least expensive path, since they don't even have unbox any of the components before shipping! ?

No, really, if I order a kit in addition to a fully assembled version, I'd be happy as long as it doesn't arrive as a single ziplock bag of assorted parts... like a certain other homebrew computer project that was once mentioned, long ago. I really liked the idea from the Mini PET, of placing each component in approximately the correct position on a sheet of foam. But I imagine that adds even more cost than full assembly... unless machine pickers can already do it. ?

I can deal with a bag of parts, within reason.  What, to me, is most helpful is a parts list that provides the information required to identify each component.  I have a kit I received that's difficult because the resistors provided didn't come with a list....and they substituted some resistors that are "close enough" so you can't really use a multimeter to properly identify them.

I have another kit that was a bag of parts, but the instructions provide how to differentiate the parts, which made it super easy.

5 hours ago, StephenHorn said:

If there's a kit version, I expect each chip and component will come individually boxed and labeled, because that's obviously the least expensive path, since they don't even have unbox any of the components before shipping! ?

Yes! That's the ticket!! ? Individually boxed in anti-static foam, each one in their own individual 3d printed carrier. ?

Yes! That's the ticket!! [emoji1787] Individually boxed in anti-static foam, each one in their own individual 3d printed carrier. [emoji23]

Definitely, and the launch price will be only $9,999.99!

On 9/5/2020 at 4:25 PM, StephenHorn said:

I really liked the idea from the Mini PET, of placing each component in approximately the correct position on a sheet of foam. But I imagine that adds even more cost than full assembly... unless machine pickers can already do it. ?

Yes, I wonder about that.  I don't know exactly what volume the MiniPET has sold in, but it's probably low enough that someone might have arranged those by hand (?) Or has someone developed a machine that will arrange multiple components in a single foam block in a bespoke arrangement?

(In any case, while that was neat, I don't need it to be done like that... identifying minimally-labelled parts is part of the fun of the kit experience.)

39 minutes ago, John Chow Seymour said:

Yes, I wonder about that.  I don't know exactly what volume the MiniPET has sold in, but it's probably low enough that someone might have arranged those by hand (?) Or has someone developed a machine that will arrange multiple components in a single foam block in a bespoke arrangement?



(In any case, while that was neat, I don't need it to be done like that... identifying minimally-labelled parts is part of the fun of the kit experience.)

I could see a machine picker being able to place the components, provided it can calibrate the expected height of the surface, such as when dealing with PCBs with different layer counts. There may be a maximum value to that height calibration, however, which makes it impossible for the picker to adjust to a foam sheet. There may be other mechanical problems with feeding a foam sheet instead of rigid plastic PCBs, as well. Someone from the Shenzhen area might know if they're friendly with PCBWay (or the like).

PCBWaaaaaaaaaaay.

Minipet's IC arrangement on foam definitely assisted build, orientation, and even contributed to the sturdiness for transport.  As much as I've corresponded with Dave, I don't know what volume or what means were leveraged but my sense is that everything was arranged by hand.  If you look closely at the MiniPet board, you'll notice very very few components other than the ICs and none of the resistors or diodes or caps were labeled but it was an easy build as long as you don't mind near 1000 solder points.  This looks to be about 25%-50% larger but trades some amount of tedium (in all of the little key switches) for more sockets and variation of unique parts in some of the more interesting sections of the board.

Logistics of procuring and stocking parts for an output qty of hundred or more x16s is probably worth it but at small scale, I can't say it would be (my opinion; and saying this without a good view of the board)

I'm pretty big in the vintage synth DIY world and have built some monsters (discreet / non-IC) projects such as the CrOwBX.  Mouser carts are often the way although maintaining an updated list of materials pending availability, especially in other regions of the world is a challenge in itself but if this project has legs (and I think it does), somebody might pop up and 'own' the lifecycle of maintaining an up to date BOM.

Having said this, I'll echo others comments which includes the sentiment that a community of builders will pop-up and help those in need.  People will also offer build or troubleshooting (board fixes) services.  But I'm all in on a kit form  for myself in whatever format it is made available. TFW8b has been very good helping me interface an old Northstar CRT, mess with a joystick adapter for the MiniPet, and has offered (at some point) to address a timing issue that I have with composite output.  I see many many many more people collaborating here.  Most of us do it for the love of 8 bit.

 

2 hours ago, EMwhite said:

... Mouser carts are often the way although maintaining an updated list of materials pending availability, especially in other regions of the world is a challenge in itself but if this project has legs (and I think it does), somebody might pop up and 'own' the lifecycle of maintaining an up to date BOM.

...

I didn't even consider something like Mouser carts. The design team could offer a board + Vera + the two sound chips and build instructions as an add-on to one of the three versions of assembled boards in a full size case (which even with the CX16e board would still give an operational reference point to verify that the build worked) ... and a Mouser cart (or similar) to obtain the "in current general production" parts. That might substantially reduce fulfillment costs for the team.

An off-topic but applicable example; an outfit called "Thonk" sells kits for just about everything DIY-synth these days and I was in on a number of group buys in early days and some less polished DIY 5-10 yrs ago.  Point is they offer 'partial-kits' which may include the eurorack machined or dye-sub ink'd 'panel', pcb and most importantly, some of the more difficult to find parts.  Sometimes this is an unusual part that the project leads have moulded, sometimes it's or rare NOS transistors that synth manufacturers used in the mid-80s.  Have a quick look a one here: https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/prok-snare-panel-pcb/

Docs are typically very good and they have videos etc. Also, most of the build forums in places like Muffwiggler in the DIY section have support areas but the point is that indeed, a Mouser list for standard parts and a direct sourcing or hard to find or specialized might be a way to go.  I just bought a set of Cherry switches and the shift-lock components for the Petskey kit.  Can be shared (small use-case, but still); https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=f484f09934

Will let you know in a week if I bought the correct parts : )

I didn't even consider something like Mouser carts. The design team could offer a board + Vera + the two sound chips and build instructions as an add-on to one of the three versions of assembled boards in a full size case (which even with the CX16e board would still give an operational reference point to verify that the build worked) ... and a Mouser cart (or similar) to obtain the "in current general production" parts. That might substantially reduce fulfillment costs for the team.

Firstly thank you for these ideas.

We are likely not going to go that way, and would prefer to supply everything in one tidy box. [emoji4]