Commander X16

One of the corners isn't like the others. And is that an extra WOODGRAIN part off to the right? And REAL metal buttons??? I remember when buttons were made of metal.

Of course, I also remember when you "dialed a phone" by sticking your finger into a ring with holes in it and spun each number clockwise before letting is spin back by spring power.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:36 pm When and how will I (if everything goes at least somewhat according to plan) be able to buy a "finished" Commander X16 computer (enclosed in its case, complete with keyboard) with a "real" 6502 processor inside?

Probably never. Part of the problem here is that you're coming very late to this conversation and haven't really followed all the discussion involving the overall design and goals for the project.

There are three basic designs for this product. They are not "phases", and none of the three designs is the end game. They are targeted at different audiences, with different goals as a consumer product.

The Gen-1 system is targeted at early adopters and people who want a bare motherboard that they can customize in or with a case of their choice. You will be able to buy a customized case for the system, but I suspect that will be shipped as a parts pack that you'll assemble. This system will have discrete chips in through-hole DIP packages. This is the system that clearly has the most in common with 1980s PC and 8-bit computer designs.

The Gen-2 system is a "gamer's computer". It's going to have surface mounted components, a single expansion/cartridge slot, and it will likely fit in a much smaller enclosure. This is more like the "CDTV" of the Commander line, targeted for gamers and consumers, not so much creators and programmers. (Although it will be perfectly useable as a programming machine.)

The Gen-3 system will be designed to be as small and inexpensive as possible, probably with an all-in-one FPGA or ASIC. This will be small enough that it will disappear behind your monitor, much like a Raspberry Pi. This would be the mass production model that could be sold in bulk for things like schools and college STEM programs. They'll be cheap enough that schools could buy a few hundred at a time for their STEM labs. (And cheaper than a college textbook, so college students would buy them to keep.)

Is this the perfect computer that meets everyone's expectations? Perhaps not. Certain bits have been removed for reasons of cost and/or complexity. Certain parts have changed and morphed, and this is just one template for success.

We've already had people come up with other "dream computers", and the idea of the Commander X16 could easily morph into other designs, with their own unique heritage.

In fact, I can conceive of an entire line of Commander computers: the Commander Z80, Commander 86, and the Commander 68K, all focused on the different designs and unique software those different CPUs made possible.

TomXP411 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:50 pm In fact, I can conceive of an entire line of Commander computers: the Commander Z80, Commander 86, and the Commander 68K, all focused on the different designs and unique software those different CPUs made possible.

Pretty sure Bruce is well on the way to having that Commander Z80 designed.

I'm... not really interested in a Commander 86. That isn't to say that there isn't an audience for it; it just isn't me. I already have a Tandy 1000 HX.

The Commander 68K should be relatively straightforward to build; the 68K was designed to be able to use 6800-series support chips, so it has the same kind of timings. The original 6500 was designed to be a drop-in replacement for the 6800 (electrically, that is; not in architecture), and while that particular chip was sued out of existence, its successors have maintained that same bus timing and logic level compatibility.

TomXP411 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:50 pm

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:36 pm When and how will I (if everything goes at least somewhat according to plan) be able to buy a "finished" Commander X16 computer (enclosed in its case, complete with keyboard) with a "real" 6502 processor inside?

Probably never. Part of the problem here is that you're coming very late to this conversation and haven't really followed all the discussion involving the overall design and goals for the project.
<snip><snip>
The Gen-1 system is targeted at early adopters and people who want a bare motherboard that they can customize in or with a case of their choice. You will be able to buy a customized case for the system, but I suspect that will be shipped as a parts pack that you'll assemble. This system will have discrete chips in through-hole DIP packages. This is the system that clearly has the most in common with 1980s PC and 8-bit computer designs.
<snip><snip>

Having been around here for awhile, I've read a lot of discussion on what people want the X16 to be and what it might become. Certainly the plan has evolved over the many years my hope that it soon becomes something I can purchase.

I'm looking forward to a Gen-1 machine. It isn't my personal perfect dream computer, but it will be good enough. It might not fit all of everyone's desires, but I doubt any computer could fill that bill.

To that I want to thanks those who've made the X16 possible, from the original "inventor/dreamer", to the coders and designers, to even those who just hang out in the forum as community members. As a collective community it's been an enjoyable ride so far. I can only imaging a future (in 40 years) when someone wants to build a retro of the X16.

TomXP411 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:31 pm ... David has managed to come up with something even better. IMO, this one just screams "80s 8-bit". ...

That is cool. It'll generate another flurry of interest on Facebook when that one hits.

If the owner puts the screws in themselves to assemble the case, that would definitely tickle the "DIY" bone of many of the same people who are hankering for a kit.

__________________

kelli217 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:06 pm Pretty sure Bruce is well on the way to having that Commander Z80 designed. ...

Goodness no ... my aim is a CP/M card for the X16.

Since I'd be aiming for a Gen-2, and so avoiding the need for a 1 to 2 or 1 to 4 riser board would be a win, if it also functions as a Serial interface card and upgraded I2C channel for the I2C connected network interface someone else is working on, that's a bonus.

BruceRMcF wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:55 am Goodness no ... my aim is a CP/M card for the X16.

Since I'd be aiming for a Gen-2, and so avoiding the need for a 1 to 2 or 1 to 4 riser board would be a win, if it also functions as a Serial interface card and upgraded I2C channel for the I2C connected network interface someone else is working on, that's a bonus.

And then the X16 is essentially a VERA interface board for the CP/M computer in the slot. Kind of like the way Apple II machines worked when they had a softcard...

kelli217 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:43 am

BruceRMcF wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:55 am Goodness no ... my aim is a CP/M card for the X16.

Since I'd be aiming for a Gen-2, and so avoiding the need for a 1 to 2 or 1 to 4 riser board would be a win, if it also functions as a Serial interface card and upgraded I2C channel for the I2C connected network interface someone else is working on, that's a bonus.

And then the X16 is essentially a VERA interface board for the CP/M computer in the slot. Kind of like the way Apple II machines worked when they had a softcard...

The Vera, YM2151, the ATTiny keyboard interface controller, the VIA to talk to the SNES controllers & IEC bus & the RTC (after all, some upgraded BDOS replacements support time stamps).

And when the 6502 is the main CPU, the Z80 is an interface board to the built in Z180 devices including 2 UART serial ports and one (with the Z180 running on a PLL clock doubler at 16MHz) 800kbps I2C port (along with, as if there aren't enough timers on an X16 between the VIA, the ATTiny and the RTS, more timers).

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:45 am If phase I is a completed computer product, what then is phase II and III? I thought the phases was different stages of dev kits along the way to the finished product...?

All three phases are completed products of same system. And there is a reason.
The overall goal is to build a real machine with large user base. To obtain large user base the product should be cheap. But machine with real components can't be cheap.

So Phase 1 (X16P) ticks the box about being a real machine with real chips, but rather expensive, and also difficult to produce.

Phase 2 (X16C) is cheaper and easier to produce. Kinda a transition state between Phase 1 and Phase 3.

Phase 3 (X16E) is the cheapest. It has no real chips, but from functional perspective it repeats real machine from Phase 1. Thus it is not some imaginary computer, but a condensed version of real one. This should be cheap enough for anybody to buy and thus make a large user base.

All three phases are different finished products, but they are essentially same X16 platform, and they are fully compatible with each other.

Jestin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:54 pm @AndyMT, that case looks fantastic! I think I'm going to pick up some plastic this weekend and start printing!

Thanks a lot! The Omega MSX community now seems to adapt the case, I've seen some makes already. So I'd be interested in yours .
But be aware - the Phase 1 board won't fit. Mini-ITX of phase 2 should be fine.

AndyMt wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:46 pm I've seen some makes already. So I'd be interested in yours .

It's going to take a while, I probably need to reprint one of these, and I need to figure out how to get the larger parts printed on my ender3...but I can't wait to get it assembled! No idea what I'm going to put in it, but it was just to pretty of a case for me to not print!