Fast IEC ?

Fnord42 · Post by **Fnord42** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:03 pm

Good point. The only thing where this might be problematic is developing (for) external hardware. Is there an API in the emulator that allows us to simulate external hardware (like expansion cards and/or hardware on the user port)? If not, is it planned to add it at some point? Or are there arguments against it? (Except developer time, which is of course always short. I guess this feature would be relatively far down on the priorities list, at least until the hardware is more or less finished.)

m00dawg · Post by **m00dawg** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:16 pm

Expansion hardware is a great point. I still think between all the options discussed across the forums that one of them will stick ? So I have to imagine we'll have some sort of file copy solution - other than Sneaker Net. I'm just not sure which one. I would imagine the simplest one will be the first one that works (and that sounds like some sort of user port solution is my guess - or perhaps the IEC port).

I think I'd be less bothered by SD cards if they weren't so small and were more purpose made for frequent insertion and removal. Something between an SD card and 3.5" would have been nice, with slots intentionally made for the purpose. Micro-SDs are even worse - I've lost several already behind my desk and that's where they're staying.

I have to swap SD cards between devices several times a week and it ends up being a pretty big annoyance for me and they definitely do wear (both the SD cards and the readers) if you swap cards a lot.

rje · Post by **rje** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:58 pm

YES on using the emulator! That's a very good point. (And yeah, it's also a good point that when we're working with hardware expansion we probably won't have the emulator to rely on).

But! Yes, I think avoiding the SD swap two-step dance is important, and that's why we have serial transfer of one sort or another. And it doesn't have to be "fast". It can be the X16 waving little flags manually at my Mac and I'd be fine (*).

(*) exaggeration

TomXP411 · Post by **TomXP411** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:15 am

4 hours ago, rje said:

But! Yes, I think avoiding the SD swap two-step dance is important, and that's why we have serial transfer of one sort or another. And it doesn't have to be "fast". It can be the X16 waving little flags manually at my Mac and I'd be fine (*).

There are already solutions for the C64 that load data into RAM over the User port. It would be trivial to implement a similar solution on the Commander.

And, again, don't forget that I've already put together a basic spec for communicating in parallel over the User port. All we need to do is implement that in code (which we can't reliably do until we have hardware.)

Lorin Millsap · Post by **Lorin Millsap** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:25 am

Again to all the people discussing serial over the user port. RS232 serial is already planned. The routines just have to be written and the vectors are there.

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BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:20 am

14 hours ago, m00dawg said:

Expansion hardware is a great point. I still think between all the options discussed across the forums that one of them will stick ? So I have to imagine we'll have some sort of file copy solution - other than Sneaker Net. I'm just not sure which one. I would imagine the simplest one will be the first one that works (and that sounds like some sort of user port solution is my guess - or perhaps the IEC port).

I think I'd be less bothered by SD cards if they weren't so small and were more purpose made for frequent insertion and removal. Something between an SD card and 3.5" would have been nice, with slots intentionally made for the purpose. Micro-SDs are even worse - I've lost several already behind my desk and that's where they're staying.

I have to swap SD cards between devices several times a week and it ends up being a pretty big annoyance for me and they definitely do wear (both the SD cards and the readers) if you swap cards a lot.

If you want a more convenient form factor for sneakernetting, there's always compact flash, a 2GB CF card is around $12 on Amazon, and there are USB CF readers available.

I'd assume that a Device #9 file server over the serial port will already be sorted out by launch, so the issue is if that is not fast enough. An EPP Parallel port interface to a USB / DB25 converter with full LPT and COM functions would be plenty fast enough if bit banged RS-232C serial is not, and if the other capabilities available from higher speed serial are desired, some form of dedicated UART would also fill the bill.

At the cost of a USB/DB25 converter, or the cost of a UART card, an accelerated-SD2IEC solution would be more for those who already have or want an SD2IEC for a VIC-20 or C64 in their setup, so the SD2IEC is not really an extra overhead expense.

Cyber · Post by **Cyber** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:12 am

13 hours ago, Lorin Millsap said:

Valid point to a large degree. Less of an issue here if the system always closes its files, but I can see wear being an issue. To minimize swapping you will have serial. And if you do all your testing in the emulator you will not need to swap cards as much.

Why are we discussing active trasfer of files between X16 and PC? And why do testing on emulator?

X16 is not a microcontroller which essentially needs to be connected to PC for development. X16 is a freakin standalone self-sufficient computer! It should be possible to do all development directly on it.

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:08 am

3 hours ago, Cyber said:

Why are we discussing active trasfer of files between X16 and PC? And why do testing on emulator?

X16 is not a microcontroller which essentially needs to be connected to PC for development. X16 is a freakin standalone self-sufficient computer! It should be possible to do all development directly on it.

I don't think that there is an implication that EVERYONE need to or want to transfer files in and/or out of their CX16 at speed faster than the built-in serial port allows, but coming up with use cases for SOME people to want to do so is not hard.

(1) Because for many people, the easiest backup for the SD-card will be to write it out to some folder in a PC's mass storage

(2) It doesn't REQUIRE cross development, but many people will do cross development.

(3) Some people have things they'd like to do that exceed their budget for bespoke hardware and see a way for an existing PC to be used as a resource to fill the gap.

(4) The amount of GPIO and freedom to program to the bare metal makes the CX16 attractive as a bench computer for some kind of work, and you'd like your bench computer to be able to talk to your laptop.

Cyber · Post by **Cyber** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:29 pm

@BruceMcF Valid points. I also might need some od them sometimes.
What I meant, aren't we exagguratng things?
I mean, serial is fine for most of these cases. And swapping SD card someties should not wear it off.
I'm not declining anything. I just felt discussion on the topic somewhat pushy. And reasons are not that vital.

m00dawg · Post by **m00dawg** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:58 pm

7 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

(4) The amount of GPIO and freedom to program to the bare metal makes the CX16 attractive as a bench computer for some kind of work, and you'd like your bench computer to be able to talk to your laptop.

This peaked my interest. I'm not sure what you mean by bench computer? Are you referring to using the X16's GPIOs to do logic probing kinda stuff or something else?