Commander X16

To clarify further on the keyboard toptic:

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:33 am The first issue makes it a bit impractical to use an off-the-shelf keyboard that isn't using the US layout, and it's a simple fact that absolutely no-one outside the US are using that particular layout. Not a dealbreaker by any means, but a bit annoying nevertheless.

The second issue means you can't type non-US characters at all, as they simply don't exist in the character set.

You can switch to non US layouts. I'm using Swiss German, which is rare and even different from Standard German. See a list here:
https://github.com/rsbohn/x16-emulator/ ... ard-layout
Using one of those with iso mode works very well. If your layout is missing: I think more can be added into rom. Use the -keymap commandline parameter with the emulator to get the current list. Not sure if the one I've posted is up to date.
You can hava an autoboot.x16 file which sets iso mode and layout at boot time.

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:51 pm wouldn't expect a beginner with no programming experience to start by redefining the system fonts,

Nope, but as-needed regional ROMs could be made, and the community is approachable enough to make that happen. As character sets are changed, they are copied from System ROM over to VERA VRAM.

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:51 pm and the YM2151 is used for ... well, nothing. Honest question: How much CPU time does the playback routine require?

Nothing? Ok, I've updated the video description of the audio demo linked earlier to annotate which sample is using which audio capability. Out of the 14 samples, only four of them do not make use of the FM (YM2151). One of them ONLY makes use of the FM. So I'm not following what you mean here? Regarding CPU time, when using VGA output on Melodius it shows a kind of "CPU utilization" on the far right (same as Calliope before it). The video capture maybe didn't have enough frame rate to fully keep up with it. In some cases, some streaming from the SD (memory card file system) to the audio hardware is involved. MooingLemur also created another example of a "TSR" (customized interrupt routine) that you could invoke an audio playback in the background, while continuing to use the X16 CMDR-DOS as normal. In other words, the system isn't fully stressed only doing audio playback - there is plenty of CPU time remaining for "AI"/NPC logic or exchange of game-state over external communication (network gameplay) and certainly local gamepad polling. That was another point of the Melodius audio demonstration: there is enough CPU time left over to visually depict what all the audio channels are doing in real time. But maybe I've misunderstood the question re: CPU time?

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:51 pmI know very little about the Agon Light, especially its audio capabilities, and visiting the various web sites associated with the project didn't help much.

I got one, I had to try over a dozen PS2 keyboards before finding one that actually worked with it. And it doesn't boot to BASIC - it can be setup to BOOT to BASIC, but it's a number of steps to figure out how to get to that point (and then it's a lackluster BASIC). I haven't used that AL in over a year and it's not something I recommend gifting (like to nephews), especially for the PS2 keyboard issue. Maybe I should give it another fair chance someday, but really the X16 has been far more fun to use from Day 1.

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:51 pmBASLOAD is good. Ditching the ancient BASIC interpreter entirely would have been even better.

Do you mean something else, that would also fit within an 8KB ROM slot? Something like APL, since we could apply APL symbols to the font? Maybe giving that one more chance, something like APL might finally catch on? Not likely. Or do you mean something like Python? Not all of that capability is going to fit in ROM, and so then you levy SD-card content requirements. No thanks - I'll take the "bare minimum" solution to maintain that "boots into programmable mode" feel, and nearly "instant on" (2-3 seconds at most). There were some growing pains between R31 and R46 releases of the System ROM -- breaking backwards compatibility in some cases, and that kind of "moving target" a lot of developers don't want to deal with. But through that churn, a number of good BASIC keywords were added, and refinements to the BASIC/KERNAL interaction.

prog8 has been a very interesting novel approach to software development for the X16. But on-system high level language support remains a challenge, specifically going past the "64K" RAM barrier (of both code space or data space). Solving that, on system, gets into "basically I need to build a complete operating system" level of effort. That is, deciding policy on how to handle across-BANK allocations. Building that on spare-time as hobbyist will take a while (a couple Pascal projects are working towards that). That was the appeal of QDOS (that became MS-DOS): it allowed up to 10 segments of 64K to be more seamlessly used by end users (i.e. appearing as "contiguous" 640K RAM). So then it's no surprise that C and Unix were essentially co-developed: one needs a greater expression to do structured dynamic memory allocation, but a kind of "operating environment" is needed that decides where/how to note down the allocations.

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:51 pmToday, computers are almost literally a dime a dozen, and people aren't impressed in the slightest by seeing lifelike graphics in computer games.

Yep, much is taken for granted in computing these days: flow some electrons down metal conduits, apply some Boolean logic to the path of that flow to build up to fancy math expressions, which in turn build up into a rendered depiction to something we equate "in the real world" (starting with monospaced fonts, then to the amazing real time rendered images we get today). To me, the X16 is like a skateboard or BMX bike: A device that can do a few tricks and fun to use in your spare time, but not something you'd use on the main highways.

Note on the X16 SD card, I put in BASIC examples of BIGFONT, VELOCITY, INTEREST as examples of "computationally interesting" tasks (along with other such examples by other folks). To show it's not a system for just bouncing sprites around. It's not "so capable" that you end up just streaming YT. It's odd to advertise something on merits of "what it can't do" - but that really is part of the charm of something like the X16.

encw wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:42 pm I am disappointed that the Commander X16 team has chosen to focus their community on Discord and Facebook.

I don't use FB, so I don't have insight onto how the X16 is referenced there. But if for some reason I was unable or unwilling to use Discord - I could see your point here: approaching the X16 might be difficult.

I'd also add a similar sentiment on the use of github. While I do a lot of software development and do use git, I actually don't have it installed at home - and I admit I'm just stubbornly resistant on doing so. I may need to "get" over that eventually, and just accept that git should be considered as a natural part of any modern operating environment (like that form of version management should just be part of every file- not just source code). For now, contributing via PR (pull requests) isn't something I'm too excited about (for documentation).

But it's not something to be "disappointed" about. Certainly not without proposing an alternative. For example, David wants content and information on-system, meaning 64-column PETSCII. That's one format. Other people want content on their Phone, or a Tablet they can hold next to the X16. Some want LaTeX, some want mark-down. I did some reference info in Microsoft Publisher, others have blogs or YT channels. Maybe the "web" in general has spoiled our expectations that content must be written once, then just stylized to all the place it needs to be presented. A nice ideal, and github maybe is the best chance of reaching that.

I do hope some kind of printed manual appears on Amazon for the X16 within the next year. I think that'll be an amazing milestone, for a hobbyist system.

voidstar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:45 am

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:51 pmBASLOAD is good. Ditching the ancient BASIC interpreter entirely would have been even better.

Do you mean something else, that would also fit within an 8KB ROM slot? Something like APL, since we could apply APL symbols to the font?

I'd be perfectly happy with BASIC, but preferably a dialect that encouraged more structured programming and most importantly, ran faster.

voidstar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:44 amI don't use FB, so I don't have insight onto how the X16 is referenced there. But if for some reason I was unable or unwilling to use Discord - I could see your point here: approaching the X16 might be difficult.

A factual and fairly neutral description of Discord would be: "A proprietary platform for real-time communication where information isn't automatically archived. Essentially open for all, except those considered by the owners to be undesirable individuals, based on an evaluation of their behaviour and beliefs as expressed on- or off-platform."

I use neither FB nor Discord.

voidstar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:44 amI'd also add a similar sentiment on the use of github. While I do a lot of software development and do use git, I actually don't have it installed at home - and I admit I'm just stubbornly resistant on doing so.

It's important to emphasise that git != GitHub.

While "git" is an Open Source Revision Control System/Source Code Management System written by Linus Torvalds and released under a Free Software license, GitHub is a Microsoft-owned website offering code repository services with a git API. It's just one of many such sites, GitLab and SourceForge being examples of others that are fairly well-known.

I can see that git can take a while getting used to, and perhaps it isn't as well-suited for documentation as it is for source code, but I absolutely do understand why some might be reluctant to use GitHub specifically.

voidstar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:44 amI do hope some kind of printed manual appears on Amazon for the X16 within the next year. I think that'll be an amazing milestone, for a hobbyist system.

That would indeed be great.

One of the amazing things about 1980s micros were the manuals that came with the systems. You'd typically get a full BASIC tutorial with extensive appendices, and of course the pinouts of every connector and perhaps even a full schematic.

voidstar wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:44 am

encw wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:42 pm I am disappointed that the Commander X16 team has chosen to focus their community on Discord and Facebook.

I don't use FB, so I don't have insight onto how the X16 is referenced there. But if for some reason I was unable or unwilling to use Discord - I could see your point here: approaching the X16 might be difficult.

I'd also add a similar sentiment on the use of github. While I do a lot of software development and do use git, I actually don't have it installed at home - and I admit I'm just stubbornly resistant on doing so. I may need to "get" over that eventually, and just accept that git should be considered as a natural part of any modern operating environment (like that form of version management should just be part of every file- not just source code). For now, contributing via PR (pull requests) isn't something I'm too excited about (for documentation).

But it's not something to be "disappointed" about. Certainly not without proposing an alternative. For example, David wants content and information on-system, meaning 64-column PETSCII. That's one format. Other people want content on their Phone, or a Tablet they can hold next to the X16. Some want LaTeX, some want mark-down. I did some reference info in Microsoft Publisher, others have blogs or YT channels. Maybe the "web" in general has spoiled our expectations that content must be written once, then just stylized to all the place it needs to be presented. A nice ideal, and github maybe is the best chance of reaching that.

I do hope some kind of printed manual appears on Amazon for the X16 within the next year. I think that'll be an amazing milestone, for a hobbyist system.

I have noticed that the idea of the pack-in manuals, like the Commodore manuals of old has seemed to go by the wayside. The fellow that was going to do them departed to another project for some reason.

That's really disappointing, because, and no offense to you if this is your area of contribution, but IMO the current documentation is not good. Too many people think that creating a PDF means just copy-pasting content from websites. A good PDF should have a layout optimized for print. I printed the entirety of the X16 Programmers Guide, and let me tell you, it was most certainly not done right. The layout is a waste of toner/ink and paper.

Not only that but, and again I mean no offense, but it is pretty obvious that whoever wrote these documents doesn't have good technical writing skills. The VERA PDF is the worst, but none of them are good.

The whole documentation situation needs to be drastically improved, and I hope that whatever company David has set up to produce the X16 steps up and gets this done right. It's so very important to the future of the X16 that the documentation is first class. On system isn't good enough, because the X16 is single tasking. Unless he wants X16 users reliant on another device to effectively use the X16 the solution must be paper.

encw wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:24 amToo many people think that creating a PDF means just copy-pasting content from websites. A good PDF should have a layout optimized for print. I printed the entirety of the X16 Programmers Guide, and let me tell you, it was most certainly not done right. The layout is a waste of toner/ink and paper.

I've noticed that most professional authors of mathematical and technical textbooks use LaTeX. I have no experience with it myself, but it seems to convert really well to both PDF and HTML. Perhaps something to consider?

encw wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:24 amNot only that but, and again I mean no offense, but it is pretty obvious that whoever wrote these documents doesn't have good technical writing skills. The VERA PDF is the worst, but none of them are good.

The whole documentation situation needs to be drastically improved, and I hope that whatever company David has set up to produce the X16 steps up and gets this done right.

I have some experience writing technical documentation, mostly internal systems documentation for the various IT companies I've worked for over the years. (I must confess I never found that kind of work particularly enjoyable, but I did consistently receive positive feedback from both management and the target audiences.)

I might be willing to take a stab at the X16 documentation, but I'd need someone to provide regular feedback, both on the quality of the content as well as the layout. Any sample code would obviously have to be thoroughly tested and critiqued as well.

I get the impression that some of the folks, particularly those that seem to have only a few posts under their belt, are here to otherwise be negative and poop on the pizza as it were.

I'd like to remind folks of the rules:

viewtopic.php?t=6266

The rules don't mean you can't disagree. We're retro enthusiasts and disagreement seems nearly fundamental to the hobby for some reason. What the rules ask for is to do so with respect. And of note this forum is not the place you go for an argument. That's here.

Rule #1 is "Comment with Kindness" which I read as 'write your responses using "yes,and" and not "no,but"'. Rule #6, in simple terms, don't be a troll. Both of these I feel have been violated at various points in this thread. To be clear, we have already had conversations amongst us mods about whether we should be taking action against negative behavior so consider this a (polite) warning.

As a final note, if you don't like the X16, you have many options. Go find the one the makes you happy. If you have a bunch of ideas on how to improve the X16 or associated documentation, KERNAL, etc. many of these resources take pull requests and I invite you put your passion to actual work. Most of these are on https://github.com/X16Community

m00dawg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:09 pmI get the impression that some of the folks, particularly those that seem to have only a few posts under their belt, are here to otherwise be negative and poop on the pizza as it were.

I respectfully disagree.

I read the thread again from the start, and I can't really see any posts that would deserve to be classified as "trolling," as in posting in a disingenuous and provocative manner for the sole purpose of causing a heated discussion. Again respectfully, might this not be a case of slight "online blindness," where the fact that you don't hear the other persons' voice or see their facial expressions, makes it all too easy to attribute to them motives based on your own interpretation of what they're writing, rather than what they're actually saying?

Anyway, the thread was started as a "postmortem" of phase 1 of the project, from the view of a (potential) buyer and user. Of course, the person I'd really like to hear from is Dave Murray, the man who put his money where his mouth was and brought this (quite impressive, to be honest) project to fruition, but I think it's also a useful exercise to hear what the customer base has to say.

m00dawg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:09 pmTo be clear, we have already had conversations amongst us mods about whether we should be taking action against negative behavior so consider this a (polite) warning.

Isn't "negative behaviour" a rather subjective term, one which could potentially be applied to basically any statement that's even vaguely critical? I certainly don't mean to be "negative," but I still wish there was an official case for the X16. And there still could be, couldn't there?

m00dawg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:09 pmIf you have a bunch of ideas on how to improve the X16 or associated documentation, KERNAL, etc. many of these resources take pull requests and I invite you put your passion to actual work. Most of these are on https://github.com/X16Community

I've thought long and hard about the documentation issues, and have come to the conclusion that one reason for the suboptimal state of affairs might be that git is an extraordinarily ill-fitting tool for that particular job. But that's for another thread.

m00dawg wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:09 pm I get the impression that some of the folks, particularly those that seem to have only a few posts under their belt, are here to otherwise be negative and poop on the pizza as it were.

I'd like to remind folks of the rules:

viewtopic.php?t=6266

The rules don't mean you can't disagree. We're retro enthusiasts and disagreement seems nearly fundamental to the hobby for some reason. What the rules ask for is to do so with respect. And of note this forum is not the place you go for an argument. That's here.

Rule #1 is "Comment with Kindness" which I read as 'write your responses using "yes,and" and not "no,but"'. Rule #6, in simple terms, don't be a troll. Both of these I feel have been violated at various points in this thread. To be clear, we have already had conversations amongst us mods about whether we should be taking action against negative behavior so consider this a (polite) warning.

As a final note, if you don't like the X16, you have many options. Go find the one the makes you happy. If you have a bunch of ideas on how to improve the X16 or associated documentation, KERNAL, etc. many of these resources take pull requests and I invite you put your passion to actual work. Most of these are on https://github.com/X16Community

I didn’t feel that I was being rude. If I was rude regardless of my intentions, then I apologize.

I think that the X16 is the best system among all neo-retro competitors. It’s got a good mix of features and accessibility, and it’ll be even better once the gen 2 and 3 systems arrive.