Commander X16

28 minutes ago, TomXP411 said:

Yeah, I'm kind of wishing they had gone with the open ROMs and used a FOSS 6502 BASIC. There are a couple out there. 



Or if there isn't a suitable one, the community could probably have built an interpreter by now. Add the text editor and assembly environment written by other folks here on the forum, and we'd already be done with the firmware - without paying Cloanto a red cent.

Hindsight has a lot stronger optics than my actual physical eyeballs. The timeline they were imagining isn't the timeline that happened.

But by the same token, if the community could have done that by now without a Cloanto license, it could have done that anyway with the license. There could be a FOSS 6502 Basic and a FOSS implementation of the Kernel. If the already open source parts of the firmware are using the Kernel through its published API, it's a much less challenging task than the effort to get a compatible open source C64 KERNAL written.

It may be that in order to have a large enough ongoing open source community for that project, the hardware has to be out in the world. But you can't get the board out into the world without a BIOS ... and for a board that doesn't bootload an OS, an interactive control language ... which makes it a classical chicken and the egg question.

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2 hours ago, Brad said:

Im betting that had the X8 been released months ago and called a “working prototype with reduced feature-set” 99% of this discussion wouldn’t exist. I’m being as nice as I possibly can with my post here, but some of you guys are just whiny. There seem to be plenty of people complaining that they’ll only code for the X16 and won’t code at all if the X8 even exists. So, where’s your contributions to the X16 library? The emulator works. Again, that just sounds like whining.

On the other hand, David did ask everyone on the Facebook group to come here and say how they felt.

Its a hobbyist board. People who develop on it are going to be developing on it for pleasure. If imagining developing for a single stable development target that more than a small handful of people were using was part of the fun, and having the target split in two reduces the fun ... what should they do, not say how they feel?

There's a bit of an internal contradiction between "It's Just a Toy!" and "Don't get hung up about what makes it fun for you!"

 

1 minute ago, BruceMcF said:

But by the same token, if the community could have done that by now without a Cloanto license, it could have done that anyway with the license. There could be a FOSS 6502 Basic and a FOSS implementation of the Kernel. If the already open source parts of the firmware are using the Kernel through its published API, it's a much less challenging task than the effort to get a compatible open source C64 KERNAL written.

The deal "just happened" behind the scenes, and at that point, it was a done deal. 



So right now, there's no incentive. Even if some of us got together and built an interpreter, there's no guarantee David would use it, and so the effort would be largely wasted. 

For reference, a few people in various places have suggested Enhanced BASIC for 6502 computers:

http://retro.hansotten.nl/6502-sbc/lee-davison-web-site/enhanced-6502-basic/

 

 

33 minutes ago, TomXP411 said:

The deal "just happened" behind the scenes, and at that point, it was a done deal. 



So right now, there's no incentive. Even if some of us got together and built an interpreter, there's no guarantee David would use it, and so the effort would be largely wasted. 



For reference, a few people in various places have suggested Enhanced BASIC for 6502 computers:



http://retro.hansotten.nl/6502-sbc/lee-davison-web-site/enhanced-6502-basic/

The deal didn't really "just" happened behind the scenes. The project started out with a hacked C64 KERNAL and Basic and unlike a lot of people in the early months, David was never dissatisfied with V2 Basic,. The only real surprise in the deal was the it came through at the 11th hour after we had heard that it might be in trouble.

If community developers with sufficient 6502 assembly language programming experience were waiting on whether or not the deal got signed before jumping into a community development effort, they were the ones who put the decision in Cloanto's hands whether the board would released with a Cloanto licensed BIOS and Basic or whether there would be an intrinsically risky "community development to the rescue" effort launched.

But that's spilled milk under the bridge ... or some such ... and with a commitment that it will be possible (but at User Risk) to flash a CX16p board, if the intersection of people interested in having a FOSS alternative BIOS and Basic, people with required range of 6502 assembly language and other development skills, and people with the time to commit to the effort is not an empty set, that project could be forked today.

I would not actually be surprised if it happens someday, but I wouldn't expect it to happen until the boards are released.

30 minutes ago, BruceMcF said:

Its a hobbyist board. People who develop on it are going to be developing on it for pleasure. 

This is me.

As I said above, I want it to learn and have fun on. The same reason I got into Raspberry Pi and Arduino, for the pleasure of learning something new, or in this case something old that I had missed the first time around.

Perhaps this is why I really don't have a strong opinion either way on many of these subjects. I just want them to do whatever makes it possible on their end to make it a reality AND meet their needs and/or desires. After all, this is one mans dream computer trying to become reality, I sort of look at myself as a passenger along for the ride because I happen to like the same ride.

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Just now, Strider said:

Perhaps this is why I really don't have a strong opinion either way on many of these subjects. I just want them to do whatever makes it possible on their end to make it a reality AND meet their needs and/or desires. After all, this is one mans dream computer trying to become reality, I sort of look at myself as a passenger along for the ride because I happen to like the same ride.



?

Yeah, there's a difference between "what would you advise" and "what would be a deal breaker for you".

The project has already cleared all of my product feature deal breakers, so the only remaining deal breaker for me is if whatever ends up getting to the crowdfund stage is not something I can afford.

I would have some initial disappointment if the CX16c with a case is not launched with a crowdfund level I can afford to pledge. But it's not going to feature among the tragedies of my life.

1 hour ago, BruceMcF said:

Yeah, there's a difference between "what would you advise" and "what would be a deal breaker for you".



The project has already cleared all of my product feature deal breakers, so the only remaining deal breaker for me is if whatever ends up getting to the crowdfund stage is not something I can afford.



I would have some initial disappointment if the CX16c with a case is not launched with a crowdfund level I can afford to pledge. But it's not going to feature among the tragedies of my life.

Same for me.

Since I am most interested in a kit version first, or an assembled board if all else fails, the last hurdle for me will indeed be cost. I have made space for it already, I have a case sitting next to my main PC it's going to go in at first. But if it's too costly then I may have to put it off for a while. In the end though, I really can't see a scenario where I don't end up with one, maybe two if the FPGA Pi sized version makes it to market.

Please everybody remember the rules of this forum, particularly "comment with kindness". I've seen some spikes thrown at people already, we're here for discussing and giving our opinion on this subject. Please respect our opinions, debilitating others comment in order to get yours "seen as better" is maybe nice for you but please consider that everybody sees this differently. We come from many different places with many different jobs and all so everybody here is different but yet needs at least to be treated with the same respect.

Tl;DR: please keep the conversation as kind as possible.

Thank you

2 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

The deal didn't really "just" happened behind the scenes. The project started out with a hacked C64 KERNAL and Basic and unlike a lot of people in the early months, David was never dissatisfied with V2 Basic,. The only real surprise in the deal was the it came through at the 11th hour after we had heard that it might be in trouble.



If community developers with sufficient 6502 assembly language programming experience were waiting on whether or not the deal got signed before jumping into a community development effort, they were the ones who put the decision in Cloanto's hands whether the board would released with a Cloanto licensed BIOS and Basic or whether there would be an intrinsically risky "community development to the rescue" effort launched.



But that's spilled milk under the bridge ... or some such ... and with a commitment that it will be possible (but at User Risk) to flash a CX16p board, if the intersection of people interested in having a FOSS alternative BIOS and Basic, people with required range of 6502 assembly language and other development skills, and people with the time to commit to the effort is not an empty set, that project could be forked today.



I would not actually be surprised if it happens someday, but I wouldn't expect it to happen until the boards are released.

What I remember was David being firmly shut down by Cloanto, being told that "We can't license the KERNALto you because we have an exclusive deal with someone else." And then, suddenly, we had a KERNAL. At this point, I don't really care about the how or why... but there's still no incentive for people to spend thousands of hours re-writing an open KERNAL when David already has a license deal in place.

Setting all that aside, there were only two things I ever wanted the Commander to do: run BASIC code like a champ and work with a serial port. So far, it's one for two. 

 

Please everybody remember the rules of this forum, particularly "comment with kindness". I've seen some spikes thrown at people already, we're here for discussing and giving our opinion on this subject. Please respect our opinions, debilitating others comment in order to get yours "seen as better" is maybe nice for you but please consider that everybody sees this differently. We come from many different places with many different jobs and all so everybody here is different but yet needs at least to be treated with the same respect.
Tl;DR: please keep the conversation as kind as possible.
Thank you

Word!
The cx-project ain't dead! @The 8-Bit Guy can make this possible, and we will help as best we can in whatever direction it goes, as a team!

15 minutes ago, TomXP411 said:

Setting all that aside, there were only two things I ever wanted the Commander to do: run BASIC code like a champ and work with a serial port. So far, it's one for two.

Which one? It runs Basic code and is slated to work with a serial port, I can't tell for sure whether the "like a champ" is the missing bit or whether it's waiting on whether a bit banged VIA serial port will be successfully ported in case that falls to the wayside.

Maybe that's colored by being a lot more confident that there will be a serial port for my second terminal to work with in xForth than whether Basic will ever run more like a champ than it is now.