Commander X16

On 8/21/2021 at 1:31 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

... Some people seem confused on why I'm in favor of releasing this [the X8]. So I'm going to open up and totally lay it out here.  This is my honest opinion on that matter:  The X16 has taken much longer to bring to market that I thought.  There were many times where development was halted for 6 months or more because of unsolvable bugs.  And even though we are close to being able to release a kit fo the X16, it's going to still take more time to get this out the door and the people wanting fully assembled systems will be waiting extra time. The X16 is definitely happening.  The X8 is not meant as a replacement for it.  But, I felt like the X8 with it's super-low price-tag and easy manufacturing could help keep interest in the project much like "The C64 Mini" did, even though everyone was wanting a full-sized machine.  This would keep development on-going, and most anything made for the X8 could easily be ported to the X16 later.

 

On 10/8/2021 at 10:27 AM, maktos said:

If David came on here and said, "We're waiting for the component shortages to end, which might be 2-3 years. Have patience, guys. We're still bringing this thing to market, it might just be a while."



That would END IT. At least for all those who matter -- the NON-JERKS. Understand the difference?



When David puts forward some info, and that "isn't good enough for some people", that doesn't matter, because those who don't trust David are jerks who should just leave. We don't need to appease naysayers, trolls, troublemakers, etc.



This is about those who take David at face value -- who trust his leadership, who believe in this project. Those are the only people who matter!



My point is that David himself has expressed grave misgivings about the future of this project -- even if I trust David, I have reason to give up on this project at this point. That was never the case, before August 19th.



And thus far, after giving those grave misgivings and listing all the huge obstacles, DAVID HIMSELF hasn't put forward his new plan for us to trust him with (or not). That's a HUGE difference. 



If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

My point is that "David has expressed grave misgivings about the future of this project" is a massive misrepresentation of what David has said.

(1) David has explained that one part of the previously laid out development path is cancelled, and has express uncertainty about whether or not to release the X8 system as already designed, and solicited community feedback to help inform the decision that the team makes.

(2) David, in the original post, didn't express any misgivings about releasing the X16p when it is ready, but warned that it was not as close to being release ready as the X8 system was. Above, he reiterates and clarifies that the X16p is close to being ready, but it's not there yet.

This is where "grave misgivings about the project" goes off the rails as a description of "It's close. It's not quite ready for release yet, but the X16p will definitely be released at some point."

Now, as far as, "it's been TWO MONTHS AND NO CLEAR PLAN!!!!" as the foundation for a decision to panic ... the question becomes, is it certainly the case that two months without an announced clear plan is evidence of trouble? So the rest of this is much more speculative, but that's OK ... whether or not it is the actual situation, it presents one scenario where it would be unreasonable to expect an announced clear plan in a mere eight weeks or so ... so establishing that "two months and no clear plan yet" is by no means unambiguous evidence of trouble.

(3) Objectively, when it was decided more recently that the X8 wasn't "close enough", that would seem to intersect with David's thinking that "most anything made for the X8 could be easily ported to the X16 later". That would seem likely to be true for any Basic program, but when it comes to assembly language programming, that becomes a bit fuzzier.

(4) Information that it was decided that the X8 system as it had been designed was not going to be released ... and that Frank is going to work on a full X16e design ... doesn't pin down exactly what comes next.

So, consider, that what MIGHT come next is flipping the Phase 1 through Phase 3 script, making a more completely upwardly compatible "smaller" FPGA that would more thoroughly support binary X8/X16 compatible assembly language programming, "HighRAM based" system programming, etc.

But ... how would that compare in terms of price-point to a full fledged 512K or greater system RAM X16e? Would the price appeal of the "more compatible X8" starting point still work out?

One way to answer a hardware question with so many unknowns is to do prototypes of the alternatives, and get a firmer idea of the bill of materials for actual system designs, rather than relying on guesswork.

The development path there would be to prototype an X16e, then take that design and redesign it for relying on slimmed down X16 memory map for SPRAM and Block RAM resources hosted entirely on an FPGA in the same family, and evaluate what the price points look like at that stage.

Now, that involves, (A) the team deciding that the X8 design as it stands is not as suitable for a "work on this now, upgrade to X16 later" approach as David was originally thinking ... that takes time ... (B) deciding to get a better idea of the opportunities for a more compatible approach ... (C) Frank laying out a prototype development path and the team agreeing to it ... (D) Frank developing the X16e prototype ... (E) Frank stripping it down to the "more compatible X8" prototype ... (F) decision ... (G) announcement.

Now, would it really be unreasonable for that to have not yet reached (G) in two month's time? I would argue that a month to get to (C) would be reasonable and three months to get to (G) would not be at all surprising.

So I'm not saying this is what is going on, but simply that, to my mind, it's far too early to be panicking because of no public declaration of the new development path two months after David solicited feedback on the strategy of going with the X8 first.

As one of the official team member I will say first. David has not thrown his hands up at all and if that’s how your are interpreted it, that means only that you concluded that first and are only hearing what you already believe and not what he said. Secondly David is really not that directly involved in the technical aspects of the project. Micheal who is handling the KERNAL development has been very busy. For example the PS/2 code issue. I’m not a code guy, but I was aware of the issue and a solution was proposed. But due to tight schedules, hardware changes, etc. the fixed code was never merged so the current KERNAL is using the incorrect code. The reason it doesn’t work with the faster CPU is because the timeout runs faster too and it reaches the timeout before the keyboard gets ready. The code needs to be updated to prevent that. 

 

As to other issues, we are dealing with supply chain issues which are not unique to us. You have cargo containers sitting on ships for weeks, you have factories halting production on all but a few lines, the global chip shortages, etc. 

 

And another point, for a project that as of now isn’t a crowdfunded project, how many are this transparent.  We have ongoing tests with the existing boards are a trying to get enough parts to complete a few more boards. Fingers crossed if it goes well there will be only one more board revision and the project will advance to the preorder stage. 

On 10/8/2021 at 12:12 PM, Lorin Millsap said:

As one of the official team member I will say first. David has not thrown his hands up at all and if that’s how your are interpreted it, that means only that you concluded that first and are only hearing what you already believe and not what he said.

Thank you Lorin. Not being team members, it doesn't matter how much I, BruceMcF, or others make similar statements, we simply cannot fight the disinformation as effectively as you and others on the team can.

I mean, it's not like anyone can truly stop disinformation / fake news. It takes on a life of its own. But I appreciate your effort.

In Bruce’s defense, he is very engaged, so he is a fairly reliable source. 

My thanks to all here who counsel patience.  I second your emotion.  To those who are worried, please chill.  Here's an idea:  if this is going to become a kit, perhaps we should busy ourselves with figuring out where to source discrete and readily available IC components from around the world so the project is not bound to a single source or a single nation of origin for anything.  I've already mentioned an American board manufacturer.  That manufacturer can produce boards from already completed Gerber files to a very high degree of precision.  I'm sure there are others.

I'm also sure that such chips as 74-series logic, RAM, ROM, PIAs, PPIs, etc., and possibly even the 6502 CPU can be sourced from a number of different places around the world.  There are even vendors that offer quantity discounts.  Many of these same vendors also deal in the fiddly bits such as capacitors, resistors, inductors, switches, sockets, plugs, cables, etc.  This ain't rocket science, folks (and I know from rocket science, trust me).  

The dream is to bring this project to life, and, ultimately, to market.  So...let's find ways to help this dream take shape.  Where do I find the parts lists?  Are the Gerbers available (I'll even sign an NDA)?

8-bit Guy, if you're reading, we're here, and we're with you.  Let us help.

Thank you @Lorin Millsap for your message.

Speaking only for myself, the dearth of messaging *here* about this project is a significant demotivator.

In his video(s), David @The 8-Bit Guy implored his audience to develop software for the platform, that that would be the greatest area of help.

So one would assume that this site (all of commanderx16.com) would be the central clearing house of software, but also of information about the project.

Consistently having to hear 2nd or 3rd hand new information is disappointing and demotivating. (Facebook seems to be the primary source)

If David doesn't read this message I'm asking if you and/or other team members could impress upon him the need to change this.  Facebook could continue to be his touchstone with youtube 8-bit guy channel fans, but anything CommanderX16 related should be communicated here, and Facebook posts could be used to point those users here, for that information.

Not everyone uses Facebook, but everyone *can* pull up a website.

All I can say is if you want software developed, you HAVE TO get the actual kit in people's hands. I'm sorry, but the truth is this falls on David. He didn't take a risk and get the computer out in kit form, which was his best way to initially release the machine. Now he'll have to slowly build a base if he wants to release the Commander x16, gaining momentum by word of mouth. Only once he has that can it be supported as a pre-built case and computer order. I just hope he wakes up to that, or this project is dead.

On 10/9/2021 at 1:19 PM, Luckarusky said:

All I can say is if you want software developed, you HAVE TO get the actual kit in people's hands. I'm sorry, but the truth is this falls on David. He didn't take a risk and get the computer out in kit form, which was his best way to initially release the machine. Now he'll have to slowly build a base if he wants to release the Commander x16, gaining momentum by word of mouth. Only once he has that can it be supported as a pre-built case and computer order. I just hope he wakes up to that, or this project is dead.

I haven't read anything that says "kit form is off the table". It would be a good idea though to first know that the kit works when properly assembled. That is the reason why we haven't seen a kit yet, because anything else is just sending people a random assortment of parts with a PCB.

On 10/9/2021 at 3:19 PM, Luckarusky said:

All I can say is if you want software developed, you HAVE TO get the actual kit in people's hands. I'm sorry, but the truth is this falls on David. He didn't take a risk and get the computer out in kit form, which was his best way to initially release the machine. ...

My question here is why is this in the past tense? The system is not yet read to "get the computer out in kit form", so saying "he didn't take the risk" is an anachronism. Assuming he will not "take the risk" of getting the computer out in kit form seems unwarranted, given the contents of the quote I posted a bit up on this page.

He certainly didn't take the reputation risk of accepting early crowdfund investment, and according to information nearer the head of this thread, instead took the financial risk of funding the project primarily out of his pocket and secondarily those of members of the team willing and able to put money into some aspect of their work on the project.

On 10/9/2021 at 3:19 PM, Luckarusky said:

All I can say is if you want software developed, you HAVE TO get the actual kit in people's hands. ...

Agreed.

What's also important is that the machine NEEDS its own software for sprite and tilemap creation/editing. If one must use software on a PC to program anything complex on the x16, then what the bloody hell is the point of even having the x16 at all? Just use the PC to make stuff for the PC...

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On a personal note, having now read quite a lot about how the VERA is programmed and the implementation of BASIC 2.0, the plain truth is that I am too stupid to program this machine. C and even wacky C++, fine, but my brain just refuses to juggle hex/binary /assembly/register mumbo jumbo. And it's not like it's new to me, I've failed to grasp it for at least 25 years. I'm too stupid to program for PET and VIC20 too. As such, I'd rather continue doing my own thing in languages/platforms that already work for me; i won't be programming for the Commander x16.

So with that said I will step out of the discussions and humbly request for someone to please email me when David's $30-50 version is released? I will be happy to buy it to enjoy other people's creations. Take care.