Commander X16

howdy all - I have a design decision question. Reading through the specs I see there is 

* no built-in ethernet or wifi 

* an sd card slot in the back 

* a disk drive port there more for nostalgia than mass everyday use



I further see in the FAQ that: 

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Will a floppy or CD-ROM drive be included?



Whilst they are not included, Phase 1 at the least does include an IEC compatible Commodore-style floppy disk drive port for those who wish to use it. A drive is not included as both technologies are largely obsolete. The X16 will use standard SD Cards, with a slot located at the back of the machine (because most people when polled stated they rarely switch out the card once inserted.) Part of David's vision is that the X16 is made with still-available parts, and this extends to the storage media availability. Floppy disks are rarely if at all made any more. We do understand the nostalgic importance of those media, however they can still be enjoyed with 80s hardware or our IEC port.



 

It seems as though the intention is to use the SD card to get stuff on and off the machine - so why place it in the back? I see their statement 'most people when polled stated they rarely switch out the card once inserted' but I still don't see how that makes sense. I'm thinking the people they polled were using the sd card in a different context - for an effectively dead platform - vs one that - hopefully - will be dynamic and alive for many years to come. In the case of the former the corpus of software is largely static and take up very little room on modern storage media. As such I can totally see how someone could load up the entire library (or a healthy portion of it) onto an sd card, insert it in their retro-rig, and leave it there because they already have 99% of anything that ever was or will be for the machine. In the case of the latter, the library of software is growing so is it not more likely that an x16 user would need to remove the sd card regularly to either pull down new software or upload a new build of their project? 

In other words, if the designers intend the SD card to be the primary method for getting software on and off the x16, and the only way to get new software (that you didn't write yourself) is to

* remove the SD card 

* put it in another internet connected device 

* pull down the whatever and store it on the SD card

* put the SD card back in the x16 

then isn't it unnecessarily a PiTA to have the slot be in the back instead of the front? 



what am I missing here? ?

Just to be a completely cheeky ba#$%#$d today, I will offer the following two arguments: One, you can always get a wifi enabled SD Card if you think you need constant access,

and two, there are SD card port extenders sold pretty cheep online.  I have used two of these just for the argument you have pointed out.  That being said, and probably have open

myself up to hate, I do get your point though.  Considering I normally pile a bunch of junk on top of a cpu case, as well as, maybe a monitor, and I really don't want to try and access the back.

It's a valid question, but ultimately it comes down to what the designers feel is acceptable to them.  One thing I have learned in life is, you will only please half of the people, while completely

offending the other.

Have a great day!

 

BTW, just to make it clear, I am not associated with the project at all and do not speak for anyone but myself!

it sounds like the hardware hasn't been fully set in stone yet - maybe there's still time to put it in the front? it's not a deal breaker if it's in the back - I'm just curious as to the thinking behind the decision beyond the survey they took. For example - maybe there's a hardware reason why it's easier on them to have it there vs the front? would be great to get some insight from the team if they are around and open to dialogue... 

either way - the machine is looking like something fun to hack on ?

It seems as though the intention is to use the SD card to get stuff on and off the machine - so why place it in the back? I see their statement 'most people when polled stated they rarely switch out the card once inserted' but I still don't see how that makes sense. … what am I missing here? [emoji846]  

 Firstly I’m glad you are excited for the machine. Thanks! I don’t think you are missing anything. In a way you have answered your own question by reading the FAQ, something some people don’t bother to do so thank you for that. Personally I do not believe that it makes much sense to say that poll results don’t make sense. Market research is a key part of any product design, along with cost saving that can be passed on to the consumer. We conducted both of those with that decision and the majority of people indicated that they would not change the SD card very frequently. You can see the poll results at Facebook by searching for SD card poll but these were our takeaways for how often people would eject the SD card: 110 hardly ever or monthly/yearly65 weekly0 daily The design is now set in stone, and the card slot is at the back. To move it to the front would add a considerable cost to each unit price because we would have to modify the case instead of including it on the VERA board which we control the design of more.  There’s already some good suggestions above, and I know from my own experience once I have my core set of favourite programs on an SD card, I don’t very often swap it out. Also for programming your own games and programs, everything will be saved with the SD card in situ. But if you do want to swap it out, really how hard is it to reach around the back once a week or month?…  Perifractic, X16 Visual Designerhttp://youtube.com/perifractic

hihi friend 

Thanks for the prompt response - and for the youtube goodness! 

1 hour ago, Perifractic said:

Personally I do not believe that it makes much sense to say that poll results don’t make sense. Market research is a key part of any product design, along with cost saving that can be passed on to the consumer.



 

The way I read the statement in the FAQ - it sounded like the question posed was focused on their current behavior with their current kit vs what they felt their expected behavior would be with the X16. Given that the X16, unlike their current retro gear, would likely have a more dynamic library of software and support patches, my gut reaction is that there's going to be more need to access that card than you might expect. We are definitely in alignment as to the importance of market research - the exact text in the FAQ, semantically, reads to me as though the question was posed in a manner that might impact how the results should be interpreted. ?‍♂️ 



Regardless - as you mentioned - the design is set and it's NBD to me personally. It caught my eye so I asked about it. 

 

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There’s already some good suggestions above, and I know from my own experience once I have my core set of favourite programs on an SD card, I don’t very often swap it out. Also for programming your own games and programs, everything will be saved with the SD card in situ. But if you do want to swap it out, really how hard is it to reach around the back once a week or month?…

Eh - I think we're in alignment that on the scale of annoyances it's minor. It means without an extra something I can't place the unit anywhere that won't give me ready access to the back which is - well - annoying but certainly not the end of the world. And - as one of the previous posters mentioned, there are work arounds that I can use to make the sd card accessible to the front. It just involves another thing on the wifi network I have to worry about from an opsec perspective or yet another dongle and as a dev I have a lot of computers in the office and as such I'm already drowning in dongles and opsec worries  ? 

Anyway - and very sincerely - I appreciate the quick and thoughtful replies. I'm seriously crushing on this machine and am having a lot of fun learning 6502 assembler. Looking forward to seeing the end result and hopefully contributing some code (games? apps? drivers?) somewhere down the road. 

 

cheers ?

 







 

26 minutes ago, snerd said:

The way I read the statement in the FAQ - it sounded like the question posed was focused on their current behavior with their current kit vs what they felt their expected behavior would be with the X16. 

This may be a bit of "you had to be there", because at the time the poll was taken, there was no physical kit in the hands of anyone, except for a prototype being passed between the X16 team members. So the question was entirely how the community expected to use the SD Card slot once the final X16 was available for purchase. And the majority of the community (myself included) responded that SD Card swaps would probably be rare.

Personally, I'm anticipating that I'll buy a wifi SD card and simply never think about pulling it out, except to replace it should it burn out.

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Personally, I'm anticipating that I'll buy a wifi SD card and simply never think about pulling it out, except to replace it should it burn out.

makes sense. I'm not convinced my home network is adequately secure so if it becomes an issue I'll just bite the bullet and get a dongle or something. the thing that's got me hot 'n gui over the x16 is making games in 6502 assy on real hardware that isn't decades old. if getting that means I have to have one more dongle in my life, I'll deal ?

 

11 hours ago, snerd said:

In other words, if the designers intend the SD card to be the primary method for getting software on and off the x16, and the only way to get new software (that you didn't write yourself) is to



* remove the SD card 

* put it in another internet connected device 

* pull down the whatever and store it on the SD card

* put the SD card back in the x16 

then isn't it unnecessarily a PiTA to have the slot be in the back instead of the front? 



what am I missing here? ?

Also note that this has been extensively discussed in the forums.

While if I recall correctly this was all sorted out before the CX16p, CX16c and CX16e "model names" had been invented, but putting it on the front would be a modest price bump for the CX16p, because it's cheaper to put it on the Vera board when it is the Vera that has the Mode0 SPI port built into it{+} than to add SPI lines to the Vera interface and attach the SD card slot to the board.

Now for the CX16c it might be more flexible, but then if the CX16c and CX16e are both supposed to be able to fit into the same case, the CX16e would have to be at the back of the case for the I/O and now you are adding a price bump of a block header and a ribbon cable and external SD socket for what is supposed to be the cheapest option.

So the back is the most inexpensive place to put it for the hardware design, but might not be the most convenient place for users, hence the survey to see whether the latter was a reason for opting for the more expensive design choice, which indicated that for most people it would not be a big issue.

The previous forum discussions is how people so quickly presented in this thread the options of both the extension cables that are easily available from Amazon or eBay, as well as the tiny SD boards that accept a micro-SD card which let's a computer the micro-SD card over WiFI to "inject" files into an inserted SD card.

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{+ For obvious reasons, in a setting where the video dot clock is faster than the main CPU clock and within the maximum SPI-mode SLCK speed ... if in some weird time shift scenario the C64 people were looking for a chip to support SPI, the VIC chip would have been the most appealing choice because the dot clock is faster than the CPU clock.}

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So the back is the most inexpensive place to put it for the hardware design, but might not be the most convenient place for users, hence the survey to see whether the latter was a reason for opting for the more expensive design choice, which indicated that for most people it would not be a big issue.

ty friend - this was the missing piece. there is a cost benefit. also I didn't know wifi-sd cards were a thing until some of y'all replied to the thread. I'm personally leery of adding more attack vectors to my already less-than-secure wifi setup but that's not pushback so much as it is my hyper-sensitivity to cybersecurity.  there is clearly ❤️ and diligence and passion behind this project that I knew I was missing something. very much appreciate you letting me pull your coat on this... 

?

 

No dramas. Personally I expect I will be getting an SD card extension cable from TaoBao sometime before I leave China, and will consider the issue sorted.

However, as far as network security risks go, the risk that somebody will hack WiFi access to a SD board that remains plugged into my CX16 and use it to inject a CX16 virus is somewhere "near" the bottom of my security concerns list.