Commander X16

I'm just wondering - is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

I am not on the market for development boards and the like - I want a "finished computer" (as that's all I will ever be able to use, or learn to use).

Just when someone purchased a Commodore 64 (or whatever) you opened the box, and there it was - a complete computer with no "internals" sticking out.

But a huge draw of this project is using a "real" 6502 processor, albeit clocked at 8 MHZ. I completely agree with the draw of not simulating the system, but actually offering the "bare metal".

But which stage is this? If I understand stage 3 correctly, it's "a single FPGA with a RAM chip or something, maybe even a custom ASIC".

But I thought the promise here was to see something similar to an old green motherboard where you can point to the CPU and see the numbers 6, 5, 0 and 2 on it. (Maybe a C in the middle) Not this one-circuit-drives-it-all modern FPGU/ASIC shenanigans used by Raspberry Pi et al. The actual "bare metal".

Am I misunderstanding something fundamental here?

When and how will I (if everything goes at least somewhat according to plan) be able to buy a "finished" Commander X16 computer (enclosed in its case, complete with keyboard) with a "real" 6502 processor inside?

Cheers

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:36 pm I'm just wondering - is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?

I am not on the market for development boards and the like - I want a "finished computer" (as that's all I will ever be able to use, or learn to use).

Just when someone purchased a Commodore 64 (or whatever) you opened the box, and there it was - a complete computer with no "internals" sticking out.

But a huge draw of this project is using a "real" 6502 processor, albeit clocked at 8 MHZ. I completely agree with the draw of not simulating the system, but actually offering the "bare metal".

But which stage is this? If I understand stage 3 correctly, it's "a single FPGA with a RAM chip or something, maybe even a custom ASIC".

tl:dr: the "real" 6502 processor ones are Phase 1, and Phase 2. Phase 1 is the one they are presently working on, almost all 1970s/1980s style through hole chips, though using mostly current, in production versions of those chips.

That has to be a success for a commitment to be made to go ahead with Phase 2, which would be a cost-reduced, smaller version of one you see. Then if that is a success, maybe they go ahead to Phase 3. So Phase 3 is, at this point, just a notion.

The too long part:

The current board is Phase 1. The CPU is a W65C02. The LowRAM is a 64KB SRAM chip. The HighRAM is from one to four 512KB SRAM chips. The interface to the SNES controller(s), to the IEC port and to the I2C channel is a W65C22. The FM sound chip is a YM2151, which will sit next to its Digital-Analog-Converter chip. All of the selection of which chip does what when is done by small 12 to 20 pin through hole "glue logic" chips ... many with the same pinouts as their NMOS equivalents in the 70s and 80s, though typically with a more modern, faster and lower power consumption equivalent.

But I thought the promise here was to see something similar to an old green motherboard where you can point to the CPU and see the numbers 6, 5, 0 and 2 on it. (Maybe a C in the middle) Not this one-circuit-drives-it-all modern FPGU/ASIC shenanigans used by Raspberry Pi et al. The actual "bare metal".

Am I misunderstanding something fundamental here?

When and how will I (if everything goes at least somewhat according to plan) be able to buy a "finished" Commander X16 computer (enclosed in its case, complete with keyboard) with a "real" 6502 processor inside?

Cheers

So the board that you can see pictures of in some forums here (and on the Facebook site), that's the Phase 1. Sometime in the last year or two they worked out that doing a customized front end to an existing case would not work for the initial launch of the Phase 1 board, so Phase 1 is going to be sold without a case. The main parts that aren't through hole are on the Vera daughterboard, since there wasn't an in-production ASIC chip that would provide a suitable 1980s style hardware Sprite and Tile video display.

Phase 2 is the cost reduced version of the Phase 1 board. Through hole parts involve a lot of hand assembly. It reduces assembly time to have a pick and place machine put a surface mount parts on a board and solder the parts in a solder oven. So a cheaper version of the board can be made using the Surface-Mount versions of the 65C02, 65C22, 64KB SRAM, one 512KB SRAM & 512KB FlashROM. But they would all be in-production, 8bit parts, just in the smaller carrier than used by the through-hole versions.

It might be decided to replace the Phase 1 "glue logic" with a Complex Programmable Logic Device (basically halfway between the GAL in the C64 and an FPGA) to keep the costs down.

This is the Phase where it might be viable to offer an in-case version of the system. After all, Phase 2 won't get going at all unless Phase 1 is a success.

Then, if Phase 2 works[/i] (whether or not it has a dedicated case option), that is when Phase 3 might be developed. That would be basically two FPGA's, Vera and an FPGA with a 65C02 core, a core for the bits of the 65C22 they use, a core for the FM chip, etc. If they use the same FPGA for that which they use for Vera, maybe the LowRAM would be internal to the FPGA, up to 5 ROM banks loaded from a serial flash ROM, and a 512KB SRAM as the third main chip on the Phase 3 board. That would look more like a Raspberry Pi type board than the micro ATX or mini ITX sized boards of the first two phases.

There was a flurry of excitement when we found out that Frank, the guy who designed the Vera video controller, had made a proof of concept with a 6502 core inside the same FPGA. But it was not plug and play compatible with X16 programs, and the decision was made to proceed straight to Phase 1 without taking a detour to a not-compatible "mini-Phase 3".

Thank you.

Let me ask a direct question:

a) Will there ever be a Commander X16 product that looks like a home computer straight out of the 80s? A "bulky keyboard" that, if switched on, and is connected to an old VGA monitor, immediately displays the logo and a blinking BASIC cursor?
b) if "yes", will that product have a "real" non-emulated 6502 processor?

I'm not interested in any product that looks like a "board". The exact size of the motherboard is immaterial since you can't see it without opening up the case.


Thanks

I'm not speaking in any official capacity, but I think the X16 phase 1 is almost exactly what you'd want it to be.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm a) Will there ever be a Commander X16 product that looks like a home computer straight out of the 80s? A "bulky keyboard" that, if switched on, and is connected to an old VGA monitor, immediately displays the logo and a blinking BASIC cursor?

Yes, but the keyboard and computer will be separate, so perhaps it won't fulfill your "bulky" expectation. There has recently been a new case prototype shown somewhere (I forget where), but I don't know how final that is. The keyboard will be a standard PS/2 keyboard, but with custom keycaps. I understand that it will be included with the computer, but there's also a more expensive mechanical variant available (https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/commander ... t-guy.html). The computer will boot to BASIC, and programs can be loaded from the SD card (or perhaps old disk and tape drives via the expansion ports) with a LOAD command. There is even a commnity-written User's Guide project in the works (shameless plug: https://github.com/X16Community/x16-user-guide) that if completed will be available at least in PDF form.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm b) if "yes", will that product have a "real" non-emulated 6502 processor?

Yes.

Remember, not everything is finalized with the Phase 1 product, so Phase 2 and Phase 3 could easily change from what is currently planned. We all just have to wait and see, and perhaps help out where we can.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm Thank you.

Let me ask a direct question:

a) Will there ever be a Commander X16 product that looks like a home computer straight out of the 80s? A "bulky keyboard" that, if switched on, and is connected to an old VGA monitor, immediately displays the logo and a blinking BASIC cursor?
b) if "yes", will that product have a "real" non-emulated 6502 processor?

I'm not interested in any product that looks like a "board". The exact size of the motherboard is immaterial since you can't see it without opening up the case.


Thanks

The keyboard case is one reason the Mega65 costs over US$700.

• When you turn on a Commander X16, it displays the logo and a blinking cursor, unless you have a Basic program named AUTOEXEC.X16 that makes it do something else.
• The design team has announced that the Phase 1 "through pin real chips" board won't be sold with it's own case. With the right choice of case, an old school VGA monitor can sit on the case. If you find a 3rd party bulky keyboard case for a micro-ATX, it'd be heading more toward an AppleII bulky keyboard than a C64.
• We don't yet know whether the "mostly surface mount but real chips" board (Phase 2) will have an option of its own case, but if it does, it will be an existing mini-ITX case with a customized front -- at this scale, making your own mold for a keyboard case is not cost effective. A keyboard case would be 3rd party, but it'd work with a smaller one, because of the smaller board.
• It seems like the Phase 3 board, if it is ever created, would comfortably fit into keyboard cases designed for things like a Raspberry Pi, but it'd not an ASIC, it'd be an FPGA simulating the 6502 and other chips in hardware.

Jestin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:39 pm I'm not speaking in any official capacity,
<snip>

(or perhaps old disk and tape drives via the expansion ports)

I'm unofficially as well. I'm not sure of the need/desire/demand of a tape drive interface. Not sure they even make blank tapes or disks anymore. As a retro guy I've got a good supply of them.

For my port to the X16 from all my old VIC 20 stuff I'm hoping that a Pi1541 will do the trick.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm I'm not interested in any product that looks like a "board".

Every real computer looks like a board.

The exact size of the motherboard is immaterial since you can't see it without opening up the case.

You need to know the size of the board to know what cases it will fit inside. The C64x "breadbin style" mini-ITX case ($180, available May this year) will fit the Phase 2, if Phase 2 is made, but not Phase 1, which is micro-ATX.

Edmond D wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:49 pm I'm not sure of the need/desire/demand of a tape drive interface.

I personally don't care about these, but I've heard a good argument for supporting these devices: archiving. There's a lot of people with old media and even old drives, but no working computers to plug them into. The X16 creates a new option for plugging old drives into, and allows for easy transfer to SD. It's not something I'll be doing, but I think I understand why others feel it's important.

Jestin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:32 am

Edmond D wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:49 pm I'm not sure of the need/desire/demand of a tape drive interface.

I personally don't care about these, but I've heard a good argument for supporting these devices: archiving. There's a lot of people with old media and even old drives, but no working computers to plug them into. The X16 creates a new option for plugging old drives into, and allows for easy transfer to SD. It's not something I'll be doing, but I think I understand why others feel it's important.

I foresee some offering transfer services for those who have old media. I question whether someone would keep an old drive & media around without having a working computer to attach it to and how frequent that would happen.

That being said I got rid of a CBM 2040 drive (dumpster find in 2005!) and the associated SuperPet language disks & manuals a few years ago, even thought I never had a Pet/SuperPet. It didn't fit with my Vic-20 collection and was certainly time to move it on. I consider this (or rather just myself) a rare/special case It went to a collector who had a SuperPet and wanted to learn the languages the 6809 processor supported. At least it has a future with him. I'm considering some "retro rehoming" of other pieces of the 80's that I have but don't need, such as more copies of the Vic-20 guide that only take up space.

On a barely related note, perhaps porting a FORTRAN to the X16 would be a cool project - I'd help out with that. Of course that would be after learning Forth on the X16 hardware, just because that's something I missed out on in the 80's.

Jestin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:39 pm I'm not speaking in any official capacity, but I think the X16 phase 1 is almost exactly what you'd want it to be.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm a) Will there ever be a Commander X16 product that looks like a home computer straight out of the 80s? A "bulky keyboard" that, if switched on, and is connected to an old VGA monitor, immediately displays the logo and a blinking BASIC cursor?

Yes, but the keyboard and computer will be separate, so perhaps it won't fulfill your "bulky" expectation. There has recently been a new case prototype shown somewhere (I forget where), but I don't know how final that is. The keyboard will be a standard PS/2 keyboard, but with custom keycaps. I understand that it will be included with the computer, but there's also a more expensive mechanical variant available (https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/commander ... t-guy.html). The computer will boot to BASIC, and programs can be loaded from the SD card (or perhaps old disk and tape drives via the expansion ports) with a LOAD command. There is even a commnity-written User's Guide project in the works (shameless plug: https://github.com/X16Community/x16-user-guide) that if completed will be available at least in PDF form.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm b) if "yes", will that product have a "real" non-emulated 6502 processor?

Yes.

Remember, not everything is finalized with the Phase 1 product, so Phase 2 and Phase 3 could easily change from what is currently planned. We all just have to wait and see, and perhaps help out where we can.

I don't understand how you can say "the X16 phase 1 is almost exactly what you'd want it to be"? (Why aren't there any mock-up pictures that roughly show what we're talking about??)

As I understand it phase I is a motherboard. I don't want that. I want a 80s home computer with its own distinct look and feel.

If phase I is a completed computer product, what then is phase II and III? I thought the phases was different stages of dev kits along the way to the finished product...?

Having a separate keyboard is fine. Great even - obviously that's much nicer to type on. Just as long as it clearly using the same design language as the rest of the computer, so it doesn't look like a modern keyboard attached to an "old" computer. For example, if the computer is "Commodore beige", I fully expect nothing less than the keyboard also being beige.