Commander X16

Good evening, as I wrote a few weeks ago, I've stepped back from my X16 project as I wait for documentation to mature and become more complete. The development of the hardware and software for any system suffers from the chicken and the egg conundrum. I'm posting because after being away for a few weeks, and looking around the forums, there is a lot of outdated information that no longer applies and is superseded by newer posts. But, since all posts are presented equally new commers, like me, can have a hard time separating the wheat from the chaff.

I've mentioned this before and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but is there a way to depreciate old information threads so that they can be read and enjoyed for their historical context but not taken as gospel when researching specific topics? It's a lot of work for a reader to comb through all this information and I'm sure it would be a lot of work for the moderators to tag all the threads with ratings to help identify the latest and the greatest info.

I have no idea if such a process is even possible or practical. But if there is a way I would really appreciate it.

Thank you,
Gerry

What's an example of something you're looking for, but are getting outdated information for? Asking because, at least on the software side, the updates these days don't really change existing features, only add new ones or fix bugs (unless I'm overlooking something).

Gerry wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 12:14 am I've stepped back from my X16 project as I wait for documentation to mature and become more complete. The development of the hardware and software for any system suffers from the chicken and the egg conundrum.

Chicken and the egg was year ago. I am waiting to get ahold of the hardware myself, but while I am waiting I am developing as far as possible. I have found that the official documentation is good enough at this stage. I am worried about the emulation not being accurate to the hardware since both emulators behave differently. One emulator has "differences" that the other says is wrong, and that was months ago. It is like they can't co-operate, or don't agree on the real system design of the X16 (which means the real hardware might not be real? Or one of the emulators is wrong. They might all be wrong!). That's the only area that needs to become mature.

I won't comment on the forum cleanup because that is not supposed to be official documentation

doslogo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 2:40 am

Gerry wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 12:14 am I've stepped back from my X16 project as I wait for documentation to mature and become more complete. The development of the hardware and software for any system suffers from the chicken and the egg conundrum.

Chicken and the egg was year ago. I am waiting to get ahold of the hardware myself, but while I am waiting I am developing as far as possible. I have found that the official documentation is good enough at this stage. I am worried about the emulation not being accurate to the hardware since both emulators behave differently. One emulator has "differences" that the other says is wrong, and that was months ago. It is like they can't co-operate, or don't agree on the real system design of the X16 (which means the real hardware might not be real? Or one of the emulators is wrong. They might all be wrong!). That's the only area that needs to become mature.

I won't comment on the forum cleanup because that is not supposed to be official documentation

I can't comment on Box16 as I haven't used it. Besides some fairly subtle differences Hardware and the Official Emulator are at least 99.9% agreeable. The few minor differences are pretty easy to work around. I do have two X16 boards. I usually develop on the Emulator first and then iron out any minor differences in Hardware.

Gerry wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 12:14 am is there a way to depreciate old information threads so that they can be read and enjoyed for their historical context but not taken as gospel when researching specific topics? It's a lot of work for a reader to comb through all this information

The Web as a whole has this problem, like the majority of YouTube is OBE-content.

It's still a new system and many of us are still learning the in's and out of it, and trying to find the right balance on what needs to be documented. And for some, the lack of documentation is itself an interesting and challenge aspect (like a puzzle, or "no spoilers" for a movie).

Are you looking for programming type information? Hardware information, like making expansion card? Or "general user" type information? I did a BASLOAD video on YT, that also covers some general usage.

ahenry3068 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:27 am I can't comment on Box16 as I haven't used it.

Box16 gives a lot of feedback where palette and art ends up in VRAM, and if there are any sprite issues. However, it still has the off-by-1 bottom border bug that the official emulator fixed a long time ago, but the authors also ignores any fixes to the rendering of scanlines correctly (because they might not see the X16's progress as progress), but here is where the main problem lies:

Scanline rendering.

I have very conflicting footage of real hardware that has been shown in a single "update" video from The 8-bit Guy's (meaning the same hardware should have been used, but I suspect he used older footage since the software might have been outdated). There are people online (youtube videos of the same game) that have the dev board and things work great (unknown if the hardware is old or new), but then the new official emulator completely changes things to be off by 2 scanlines instead of 1. Oh, and when I say off, I mean "relative to an unknown state". Only the real hardware knows the truth, but since it seems to not be locked in stone, it might change tomorrow.

So, not to sound absolutely mad, I have spent about a month of extra time to develop 2 different exactly the same visual gameplay games, and both produce almost the same output on both emulators (give or take the bottom scanline and some other horrors). And I am 100% ready to find the real hardware doing something even more ridiculous than the emulators, leaving me with another month of trying to swap around all the time sensitive rendering, and then somehow distribute my game as 3 binaries, and the user must somehow select which one is the correct for their experience (based on running the game and hating it for rendering things wrong because they never saw it render it right, and why should they believe it is a good game if it renders in a horrible way? I can't tell them to change emulator or update their real hardware to the latest version, because that might just introduce more problems for everyone). And what is so funny about this is, I am helpless and need to wait for the real hardware to arrive to complain about it, and will it matter in the end? If I give anyone my game to playtest on the real hardware, I will just get disappointed to see "the impossible to fix without the real hardware" issues and still have to wait until I get the real hardware myself, just to complain about it.

So I am not complaining about it. Instead, I live in a fake world I have created in my head, where I just falsely believe I have one single game that works on everything, and my game is just awesome! As long as I don't walk into reality, I might actually be able to finish this game of mine, so I can finally have some proof that allows "complains" about the emulators not doing the thing right.

But this forum is great, and so is the documentation and the people working hard to make X16 a well defined platform

There are enough boards out & enough helpful people that you could find someone to test for you. At least until you get your own hardware.

I would be happy to help.

If you're looking to find testers, check out the "Help Wanted" or the "WIP" topic areas. Either one is a good place to solicit testing help. Lots of people would be willing and happy to run your code and see how it compares to the emulator.

As to the emulator:

There is no "both". There's only one. That is the one hosted at https://github.com/X16Community/x16-emulator

The web emulator is simply an older version of the official emulator. For testing and product verification, always use the official emulator.

If there are differences in the emulator and hardware, you should try to accommodate both - but for the most part, if it runs on the emulator, it should run on hardware. (There will be small differences, but they are almost all specific performance differences for storage I/O and maybe a couple of hardware VERA quirks.)

Any other emulators are not official CCLLC products and should not be considered accurate for the purposes of testing or developing your X16 programs.

Some very specific examples of the issues I've had start with updating to system firmware R48. I asked a few weeks ago about how to upgrade as there was nothing in the Official Software board and no procedure to perform the upgrade. Here's what I wrote in "Updating the X16 Firmware to R48" post:

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I'm presently working on updating the X16 firmware to R48. I found the x16emu files in the Board Index -> Downloads -> Official Software -> Commander X16 Kernal Emulator R48. I've downloaded R48 Cadmium and unzipped the files for my M1 Mac and win64 PC. The entry has a date of September 6th, 2024 and I am assuming that the latest and correct files will be dated around the beginning of September 2024.

Next, I looked for any reference in the Official Software to identify the R48 firmware files for the ROM, VERA and SMC updates like those listed in the Commander X16 Kernal Emulator and ROM R47 entry but it's not there. I won't bore you with everywhere I looked but I haven't found the official R48 update files. I'm also looking for the application I need to run and the procedure I need to follow to perform this update, but, so far, I haven't found anything obvious. I have performed a complete backup of my SD_Card if I have to undo this upgrade.

If I'm missing something obvious, please let me know where I went wrong to better understand how these forums are organized. If I need to go somewhere else to gather this information, please let me know.

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Now I got links to find the updated SMC, Vera and SystemROM firmware but I was concerned that there is no 'official' procedures and it appears that this is still in flux. Second, there is a new application that performs all 3 updates sequentially but it's not ready for prime time yet. So I've done nothing until I feel more comfortable with this process.

I also asked about setting up the Network card in my "921.6 Kbps Serial and ESP32 Network Card Documentation" post as no documentation was shipped with the physical card. Here's what I asked:

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Are there any guides or tutorials for the Commander X16 921.6 Kbps Serial & ESP32 Network card from Texelec.com? I received it a few days ago and the box contained the card and antenna but no documentation. On Texelec.com's web page for the network card there is a description that outlines installation but the ROMTERM.ZIP link doesn't work so I'm looking for further information.

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The answers I got were fine but I had to figure out that the issue I was having related to the wrong ATD command. So I got the card working eventually but after a lot of trial and error.

The most frustrating was the money I wasted when I ordered the ESP32 low profile card and found it didn't fit in the 'official' Laser3D case as I asked about in "Fitting a Low Profile ESP32 in the Lazer3D Case." The solution, right now, is to use a riser and mount the peripheral card horizontally. But, then all the other slots are blocked so only one card can be used at a time. This computer is a development board but you can only use one plug-in card at a time? Someone didn't notice this conflict. So, I modified my case to allow more than one card (I have also ordered the Wavetable and Little Dreamer cards) but to make it work, I'm going to chop the corner of my case lid to cover most of the X16 motherboard. I did contact Lazer3D about this but I never received an answer.


Please understand I'm not complaining about the people that work to answer my questions here on this board. They are very smart and have a deep understanding of how the X16 works. But, changes and updates are coming along rapidly. I have a problem figuring out what's the latest information on whatever I'm working on as I don't know what I should or shouldn't use.

The CX16 is a new computer that I was very lucky (and grateful) to order at just the right time to get a real board. It's great but I'm starting from scratch here and a lot of the information I see discussed goes right over my head. I find Discord to be intimidating so I'm not interested in being criticized for being an idiot. That's why I ask a lot of simple questions. Just check how many posts I've made in the last year. There's a lot in flux with this project and it's easy to find oneself at the bleeding edge scratching one's head.

So to keep my patience and sanity, it makes sense for me to wait until the software and documentation mature so I can use this computer for fun. In a few decades, when the CX256 is a multi-billion dollar company with books are being written and movies made about its humble beginnings, I'll be one of those old-timers being interviewed about what it was like to be there at the beginning. I wonder if I could get a few million by having a complete, first-generation, 8-bit, CX16 developer's board with a Lazer3D case and peripheral cards? So my descendants will be set for life?

Hurry up while I'm still around! I don't want to die just as you go public!
Gerry

Here's my X16 Firmware:
Commander X16 ROM Realease R47
Vera: V47.0.2
SMC: 47.0.0
YM Variant: YM2151 (OPM)
CPU: 65C02

Update, guess what just arrived? The the Wavetable and Little Dreamer sound cards. There's no documentation with the hardware so what and where can I find software to make use of this new hardware?

Thank you,
Gerry